Why the disparity in the .338-06 vs .35 Whelen?

Just picked up another Whelen and I have the .338-06 as well. Anyway I've been looking at the load data in the Hornady manual. Whelen only has three loads in the book 180, 200 and 250 grain. The 200 grain Whelen load used 57.8 RL-15 to get 2500 fps, the .338-06 use 57.1 grains to get 2900 fps. Now my .338-06 pushes the 200 grain bullet at 2880 using the 56.5 grains of RL-15.

Now it isn't until you get to 250 grain bullets that the .338-06 and .35 Whelen become equal. I just don't see with a slightly less than 2" barrel difference makes the difference. Will the twist rate difference cause the velocity change?

No twist is about spinning a bullet around the axis to get enough centrifugal force to keep the bullet from tumbling. Is that a flat-nosed pistol bullet or is it of similar construction to the 338-200 gr bullet?

Twist determines the spin about the axis, just as nvbrocrider has stated.

The bullets are similar in construction I'd think. It isn't a huge bore difference just .020 in barrel diameter. I figure there has to be a reason the .338-06 must be developing higher pressure to produce more speed. I just don't see a whole lot of difference between the two firearms. The .338-06 listed is a M98 1:9 twist 23.5" barrel vs. the Whelen M700 1:16 22" barrel. I get all rifles are different but I wouldn't think there would be that much difference. I've checked my other load maunuals and the performance is much closer.

I think you are right about the heavyer bullets leaning towards the Whelen and lighter bullets favoring the 338/06 if you specifically wanted to shoot 200 gr bullets then that may be the route to take for sure. That load you listed of 2500fps is sorta way low from memory; and since I dont shoot that bullet weight ever I couldnt say for sure, I do remember a friend telling he bought a box of Hornady Ammo in 200gr this past season ; to try them on a deer; and I think he told me they were just over 2900fps????? so I just looked that up a sec ago and it was >>2910fps<< so not really sure about that load you listed??? as it sounds way down?? to me as to what a Whelen will actually shove them out at ??????????

SAAMI specs for the 35 Whelen is 58K psi and 65Kpsi for the 338-06. Adjusting the Whelen to shoot at similar pressure increases velocities dramatically, above those of the 338-06, primarily due to decreased bearing surface.

I think all being the same, twist, length of barrel and chambers, the Whelen will push it faster at the same pressure. Most of the Whelen data seems kinda weak, probably because of the older rifles chambered for it. While the 338-06 was standardized by A-Square at 65,000 PSI. That really gives it an edge to alot of load data.

Never messed with 200's but 225's can push into the 2700's pretty easily and 250's will easily drive deep into the 2500's without much issue. The 200's would be hammering at 2800-2900.

beretzs":2wzle74f said:

I think all being the same, twist, length of barrel and chambers, the Whelen will push it faster at the same pressure. Most of the Whelen data seems kinda weak, probably because of the older rifles chambered for it. While the 338-06 was standardized by A-Square at 65,000 PSI. That really gives it an edge to alot of load data.

Never messed with 200's but 225's can push into the 2700's pretty easily and 250's will easily drive deep into the 2500's without much issue. The 200's would be hammering at 2800-2900.

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What he said. The Whelen is one of the few cartridges which I feel comfortable to cautiously go above book max.

No different than the 280 it was chambered in the slide action and autoloader to I believe like the 280 which I believe was also SAMMI was also 58000. I have no problem going above book in my 280 and do so regularly.

taylorce1":2g62z8p7 said:

Just picked up another Whelen and I have the .338-06 as well. Anyway I've been looking at the load data in the Hornady manual. Whelen only has three loads in the book 180, 200 and 250 grain. The 200 grain Whelen load used 57.8 RL-15 to get 2500 fps, the .338-06 use 57.1 grains to get 2900 fps. Now my .338-06 pushes the 200 grain bullet at 2880 using the 56.5 grains of RL-15.

Now it isn't until you get to 250 grain bullets that the .338-06 and .35 Whelen become equal. I just don't see with a slightly less than 2" barrel difference makes the difference. Will the twist rate difference cause the velocity change?

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Actually, if you look at ballistic coeffecients which is a better measurement of weight distribution for diameter, the BC=.281 for 225 gr .338 bullets and BC=.279 for 250 gr .358 bullets. By the time you get to a 250 gr .338 bullet it would equal the BC of a 275 gr .358 (Whelen) bullet which is not generally offered for the .35 Whelen. So, a .338 caliber 250 grain bullet is superior ballistically to the Whelen, unless you compare to a 275 grain .358 bullet.

These two calibers are 0.020 inches apart in diameter but if you push bullets of the same sectional density at the same velocity, you are directly comparing them (statistic vis statistic)otherwise these comparisons (weight to weight) are somewhat misleading because they will not perform the same way. In other words, if I say it enough will somebody believe it?

Oldtrader3":268lindr said:

taylorce1":268lindr said:

Just picked up another Whelen and I have the .338-06 as well. Anyway I've been looking at the load data in the Hornady manual. Whelen only has three loads in the book 180, 200 and 250 grain. The 200 grain Whelen load used 57.8 RL-15 to get 2500 fps, the .338-06 use 57.1 grains to get 2900 fps. Now my .338-06 pushes the 200 grain bullet at 2880 using the 56.5 grains of RL-15.

Now it isn't until you get to 250 grain bullets that the .338-06 and .35 Whelen become equal. I just don't see with a slightly less than 2" barrel difference makes the difference. Will the twist rate difference cause the velocity change?

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Actually, if you look at ballistic coeffecients which is a better measurement of weight distribution for diameter, the BC=.281 for 225 gr .338 bullets and BC=.279 for 250 gr .358 bullets. By the time you get to a 250 gr .338 bullet it would equal the BC of a 275 gr .358 (Whelen) bullet which is not generally offered for the .35 Whelen. So, a .338 caliber 250 grain bullet is superior ballistically to the Whelen, unless you compare to a 275 grain .358 bullet.

These two calibers are 0.020 inches apart in diameter but if you push bullets of the same sectional density at the same velocity, you are directly comparing them (statistic vis statistic)otherwise these comparisons (weight to weight) are somewhat misleading because they will not perform tha same way. In other words, if I say it enough will somebody believe it?

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If you look at those AB those BC make some pretty good contrasts and really make the 338 stand out.

Stands out when you shoot something with a .338 WM also. I have never felt that I was being left behind by using a .338 WM versus a .35 Whelen. The Whelen may be the sentimental favorite but a .225 grain .338 WM Partition also kills big things pretty handily.

I can tell you I was surely disapointed when Nosler announced that they were making the AccuBond for the .338 in 300gr !!!!!!!!!!!! What a heck of a great combo that is going to be! And for what ever reason the folks there decided to go with a 200gr bullet in the .358 ?????? WHY???? The market place already had all it needed ??????? I will never understand with people constantly posting how they have saved all the out of production heavyer bullets for years???[hello are you listening design team] That the design team at Nosler; wouldnt see its a no brainer, to build a HEAVY bullet for the .358 crowd but instead choose to drop DOWN in bullet weight?????????? Not to sure about that line of thinking?? And I wont be surprised if that is a flop for them; sales wise...............................
I dont think we needed another lightweight bullet; but there is a ton of guys, that want some larger ones???????

Olt Trader................. I never ment to imply that anyone would ever be left behind with a 338WM by a Whelen? They never will be; but was trying to push home the point that if you are comparing a factory standard box of .338WM in 250gr cartridges from Walmart, with an advertised velocity of >2400fps<, That 90% of the folks lugging .338's around; are actually shooting out of them. To the fella lugging around an old 35 Whelen; he shouldnt feel too inferior, when he knows his 250grs are traveling along at >25/600fps< should he ??? Simple as that; I love both calibers ............................. they both work fantastic .

Oldtrader3":3lmklq9j said:

Stands out when you shoot something with a .338 WM also. I have never felt that I was being left behind by using a .338 WM versus a .35 Whelen. The Whelen may be the sentimental favorite but a .225 grain .338 WM Partition also kills big things pretty handily.

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You are right about that Charlie. Having both the Whelen and a 338WM really gives me the fits sometimes. They are both just good all around hunting rifles, I can't see picking one over the other most of the time.

35 Whelen":3lmklq9j said:

I can tell you I was surely disapointed when Nosler announced that they were making the AccuBond for the .338 in 300gr !!!!!!!!!!!! What a heck of a great combo that is going to be! And for what ever reason the folks there decided to go with a 200gr bullet in the .358 ?????? WHY???? The market place already had all it needed ??????? I will never understand with people constantly posting how they have saved all the out of production heavyer bullets for years???[hello are you listening design team] That the design team at Nosler; wouldnt see its a no brainer, to build a HEAVY bullet for the .358 crowd but instead choose to drop DOWN in bullet weight?????????? Not to sure about that line of thinking?? And I wont be surprised if that is a flop for them; sales wise...............................
I dont think we needed another lightweight bullet; but there is a ton of guys, that want some larger ones???????

Olt Trader................. I never ment to imply that anyone would ever be left behind with a 338WM by a Whelen? They never will be; but was trying to push home the point that if you are comparing a factory standard box of .338WM in 250gr cartridges from Walmart, with an advertised velocity of >2400fps<, That 90% of the folks lugging .338's around; are actually shooting out of them. To the fella lugging around an old 35 Whelen; he shouldnt feel too inferior, when he knows his 250grs are traveling along at >25/600fps< should he ??? Simple as that; I love both calibers ............................. they both work fantastic .

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Earl, your right about the 200gr AB. I really was hoping for a bullet that would work in the 358 Win's and 350 Rem Mags of the world. Nosler says the bullet is too long for the 358? I don't really want a 200 in the Whelen, so it leaves a pretty small niche. Although, with some decent loading, I really think it could hammer those 200's out pretty hard and being a bonded bullet, it just might be a screamer and allow the Whelen to have a little longer legs... Who knows till we get them.

I do like the 275gr 338 cal bullets. I have squirreled away about 250 of the old Speer 275 Semi Spitzers. I have ran them into some jugs and wow, what a bullet for a plain jane kinda slug. They penetrate very far and are pretty darned accurate. I can run them out of my 338 at 2650, which still allows for pretty flat shooting out to 400 yards and the kinda animals that need a 275 are probably shot at a little closer than that. Swift does market a 275 A-Frame for the 338 and a 280gr A-Frame for the .358's. I would be interested in seeing how many are sold. If I were to hunt in Alaska on my dream hunt of a lifetime, it would be a close call between the 250 PT's and the bigger Swifts. Not sure my Whelen would handle the Swifts, as I have a 1-16" rifle. The one thing about Nosler releasing the 200 is they are giving folks some more choices, and I am all about that! Scotty

Undoubtedly, the 338-06 A-Square and the 35 Whelen are a couple of fine cartridges. I should have my Whelen back shortly. Because I had it, I opted against a 338-06 build. However, despite having two 358 Wins, I still built a 338 Federal. I have a short action Featherweight stock, and needed to do something with it. The rest, as they say, is history. I should have it soon, as well. I do agree with Earl that it seems odd that there aren't a better selection of heavy bullets for the 35s. I'll probably focus on 250 grain bullets in this 35 Whelen; I was shooting 225s before I changed out the barrel. My 358 shoots 200s, and at the moment, I'm shooting 200s in my 350 RM. I've never been able to get 225s to perform to my satisfaction in the 350 RM, but I'll be giving it some focus again this spring.

As mentioned, pressure difference is the main reason you see the velocity difference in manual for referenced loads.
But as Mike and Scotty both eluded to, if one runs bullet of equal weight and equal pressure out of either with the 2 having nearly identical case capacities, the Whelen will have more velocity due to the larger bore diameter. That is physics, and it's called the "piston effect".
But as Charlie said, the only way for a true comparison between cartridges of different caliber, is by using bullets of close or equal sectional density, not weight. If one takes bullets of near or equal SD, and because of nearly identical case capacitites, and charged at the same pressure, they will have very similar velocity. However, due to the larger bore's expansion ratio also being larger/more efficient, it can be generally easier to tweak a tad more velocity out of it,,all else being equal.

Otherwise the twist thingy,,,, Twist can have some effect, but it very minor in most instances, specially so with the subjects in the OP.
But just for an example, say one takes like a varmint rig .22 with a 50 or 55 gr. out of a typical 1-14" twist finds a certain load that chrono's 3500 fps or whatever. If you ran that same in a a target gun with 1-7", pressure will be increased along with some velocity gain as a result. But if the load was max in the former, the later could prove dangerous. This is part why, factory loads and manual loads are somewhat modest with some rounds.

I think that among rifle nuts, there is a pretty solid group of .35 Whelen supporters that keep this cartrige alive and kicking. My issue with buying any .358 is the limitations of the bullet selections. For some reason, the .338 Win Mag became very popular as a cartridge for hunting larger game, particularly elk, in the 1970's and the Whelen still has a following of loyal adherents but must not sell the numbers of bullets to get more bullet weights on the market.

The larger bore markets are different. I never could figure out why the .338-06 was not more popular than it is. I think that being a proprietary cartridge of A-Square must have kept other makers away from the cartridge. I am glad that both cartridges have their loyal followings of fans to keep them going. Choice makes the world go around. I would have bought a .338-06 instead of the .338 Federal if given the choice at the time, but I am pleased with the .338 Federal overall.

nvbroncrider":356fgyyn said:

Oldtrader3":356fgyyn said:

taylorce1":356fgyyn said:

Just picked up another Whelen and I have the .338-06 as well. Anyway I've been looking at the load data in the Hornady manual. Whelen only has three loads in the book 180, 200 and 250 grain. The 200 grain Whelen load used 57.8 RL-15 to get 2500 fps, the .338-06 use 57.1 grains to get 2900 fps. Now my .338-06 pushes the 200 grain bullet at 2880 using the 56.5 grains of RL-15.

Now it isn't until you get to 250 grain bullets that the .338-06 and .35 Whelen become equal. I just don't see with a slightly less than 2" barrel difference makes the difference. Will the twist rate difference cause the velocity change?

Click to expand...

Actually, if you look at ballistic coeffecients which is a better measurement of weight distribution for diameter, the BC=.281 for 225 gr .338 bullets and BC=.279 for 250 gr .358 bullets. By the time you get to a 250 gr .338 bullet it would equal the BC of a 275 gr .358 (Whelen) bullet which is not generally offered for the .35 Whelen. So, a .338 caliber 250 grain bullet is superior ballistically to the Whelen, unless you compare to a 275 grain .358 bullet.

These two calibers are 0.020 inches apart in diameter but if you push bullets of the same sectional density at the same velocity, you are directly comparing them (statistic vis statistic)otherwise these comparisons (weight to weight) are somewhat misleading because they will not perform tha same way. In other words, if I say it enough will somebody believe it?

Click to expand...

If you look at those AB those BC make some pretty good contrasts and really make the 338 stand out.

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You are very right about the sectional densities. The same principle holds up when comparing the .270 Winchester to the .280 Remington, and this is one way I keep myself from going overboard when going beyond the book max when loading .280 ammo. The theory works well when the calibers are only a few thousandths apart. An example of the limitations of the use of the idea (IMO) would be if you tried to translate from .270 Winchester, or even .280 Remington, to .30-06 Springfield. There's too much difference in bore diameter and powder burn rates and suitability for one application as opposed to another another comes into play.

Oldtrader3":326oeztl said:

I think that among rifle nuts, there is a pretty solid group of .35 Whelen supporters that keep this cartrige alive and kicking. My issue with buying any .358 is the limitations of the bullet selections. For some reason, the .338 Win Mag became very popular as a cartridge for hunting larger game, partitcularly elk, in the 1970's and the Whelen still has a following of loyal adherents but must not sell the numbers of bullets to get more bullet weights on the market.

The larger bore markets are different. I never could figure out why the .338-06 was not more popular than it is. I think that being a proprietary cartridge of A-Square must have kept other makers away from the cartridge. I am glad that both cartridges have their loyal followings of fans to keep them going. Choice makes the world go around. I would have bought a .338-06 instead of the .338 Federal if given the choice at the time, but I am pleased with the .338 Federal overall.

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You are right about that Charlie. I might sing a different song had I never had a 338WM or 35 Whelen and had a 338-06 instead. For me, there are plenty of useful bullets for the Whelen and I can't seem to find a better bullet than the 225 PT for the 358 Win. It runs them out at a blistering 2450 FPS :lol: with good accuracy. They are about as good as it gets for that rifle. I think with a little bit of trigger work and maybe a better scope, it could be a little better rifle, but right now, being so short and handy, it really makes a clobberer in the woods. I am still kind of surprised Browning hasn't added the 338 Fed to their line up. I am glad they are keeping the 358 around though.

That is probably why. The .358 and the .338 Fed are pretty much twins, so much so that I have used a .358 FL resizing die to correct some bulged .338 Federal loaded cases that I have bulged the shoulder on using IMR 4064 (47.5 grs) which is a case full. I was having problems chambering this load becuase of the bulge and took out the seater stem from the .358 die to externally reform the shoulders on the finished round and make them chamber. It worked like a champ.

Gun company inertia is a strange animal sometimes. Their Marketing geniuses push new cartridges selectively and then sit on an old cartridge, just because they are the only one chambering it, when they could update it to .338 Federal and have both.