Bullet performance/Failure? A different train of thought.

[350JR]

One of the things I've frequently dumbed into while reading thread after thread on bullets for the 350JR wildcat is the mention of "bullet failure".

I'm going to put my neck on the proverbial chopping block here and ask for any opinion on such, with perhaps a "different" point of view thrown in.

New here, so a little background of from whence I came is in order so you dont think I am TOTALLY mental. :lol:

I'll have traversed around the sun on this rock 60 times come peak of the rut here in IN. (some disagreement THERE too but......Nov. 13) and other than a dozen or so deer taken with a handgun of one type or another I've NOT taken deer with anything but traditional archery equipment, black powder rifles and about 3 with a slug gun. Indiana regs have dictated my usage all my life and only in the past few years (this is year 5) have we had ANY options on CF rifle rounds.

I cant recall the number of varmint rifles Ive had and have even had bigger bore rifles "just to shoot" in my youth, ever dreaming of "going west". Ive pretty much ran the gauntlet from a 17AH custom to 222mag to 22-250, a short bout with a 220 swift, of course a couple of the .24 bores and played with the 7mm-08, 25-06, 7mm mag , 280 Rem and a 338 Win. (Hey.I LIKE RIFLES LOL)

Number of "big game" animals (only have whitetail here) shot with a CF RIFLE?.....zip. Closest thing I came to was a XP-100 Rem pistol in 35 Rem yet the number of whitetail Ive taken is about 90 and I have literally butchered considerably more than 3000, having a processing shop for a decade and a half for such till a few years back. The whitetail anatomy is no stranger to me. (just more background).

Now VARMINTS and predators? Oh yeah........couple thousand, easy.......at least before they poisoned the snot out of them. Few around today except the ding dang coyotes that have me up in the wee hours of the AM with my dog, Dewey, driving me INSANE trying to get at them. (Treeing Walker......fight, fight, Bite Bite! He isnt afraid of ANYTHING....including ME when I wont let him out, lol)

From my teens to date, more so in my early years, I did more scatter gun shooting than anything and have loaded for all the four main gauges and shot all the shotgun sports and have taken all the small game available around here with such, for decades.

At any rate........."not new" to the shooting sports but I'm betting that my background differs from the norm here by a huge degree.

A friend and I were discussing my read about opinions on "bullet performance". Since he also grew up here and now lives outside Seattle since 1980, I used him for testing the water on what I have a question on concerning such. If he made fun of me I could always hang up, you see. :grin: (kidding).

With a MAIN background in bullet performance being from above, "BULLET FAILURE" was one that WENT THROUGH and not "vaporizing" within the animal. Even that isn't REALLY a "failure" since obviously the animals were normally DRT.....but "better" bullet performance than that was always a consideration trying out the new and improved stuff coming out. (Aint there always SOMETHING?)

With black powder guns, I didnt have that option of course. Big, heavy, slow.....I shot (and still use) a 1983 54 Caliber T/C Renegade during ML season.. with (hand onto your seat) 540 grain maxi hunter bullets(discontinued, not a misprint.....1.25 oz of lead) . If I want the deer down NOW?(more on that in a minute)...take out both shoulders AND the spine. Nothing will stop that slug. Big mess but sometimes here.......the deer CANNOT RUN, if you want to take it home. 50-75 yards away can easily be another property and they will NOT let you on it to retrieve a deer......and don't legally have to either. Don't THAT stink. The OTHER issue is that there, sometimes, is another hunter IN SIGHT. If that deer runs that direction, you will be in for a fight to get "your" deer.

So........I NEED deer to drop.........right there, right now. Those shot with a 35 Rem...did not, but I was shooting a handgun and head or neck shots were not within my skill range nor my moral latitudes.....not with a handgun and ME shooting. DRT deer with a 44mag and shoulder shots worked but limited on range (again with me shooting).

I still enjoy hunting with a handgun for deer but it is not my "main" deer gun of choice. A LOT of that is due to the greatly increased pressure of other hunters. It is not the deer hunting of yesteryear by any stretch. I have a couple areas to hunt but finding others, even though I have lived in this county ALL my life.....is a biotch. When the deer herd numbers went up, everyone became a deer hunter. (complain, whine, LOL).

My run at the 350JR cartridge is a result from a lot of that pressure. Stalking a quiet woods with my longbow and wood arrows now will get me cussed at by another hunter for "messing up his area". Yeah.......I've tried to lease. Ouch.

But.....a deer hunter at heart, not just a traditional bowhunter, I take my fun where I can and last fall the wheels started turning for something "long range" (for here) where the totally UNHUNTED spanses of picked corn and bean fields that may or may not have bulldozed creeks or sparse fencerows running through it, or an occasional low weedy spot. These are mostly UNhunted. Nobody. Deer? Oh yeah........sit and watch them go back and forth, back and forth chasing does or just out feeding.......200 yards from a single tree. They are not dumb, they learn to stay OUT of the woods and thickets VERY quickly. Seems odd still but I can drive down the road and see a dozen or more so far out in a field that most miss them.

BACK on track. (Windy ol buzzard, dang).

AT ANY RATE.......a few posts I've read talk about some bullets "losing their jacket", not staying together.....failing. uh....ok. HUH? On a DEER?

Moose, bear...african species that can bite you back...oh yeah. PENETRATION would be king. Big, tough, sometimes dangerous, expansion with penetration is all but mandatory, but whitetail?

With 110-120lbs dressed, being a Nice whitetail doe, 140-175 lbs dressed out being pretty average for a buck, with a few running over 200, this is not a big animal, nor particularly hard to kill. (no offense to anyone there).

It just SEEMS TO ME, that a bullet that penetrates about midway though a chest of a whitetail (what? 6-8 inches?), expanding from the get go......and then coming totally APART would duplicate the results one gets on the proper predator bullet, AND...........a "dead right there!!!" deer.

Core and jacket separate? More damage done, at least it seems to me? There is an OLD adage about "expending all the bullet energy within the animal" and lots of conversations decades back where some perferred that and a lot turn their nose up at it these days, and without having the physics upon such........I know for a fact IT WORKS.

Yes, for a raking shot, texas heart shot (arghhhh....not me!), frontal shot, a tougher bullet would be safer. Depends on a lot of things of course, but when stand positioning, distance of shot, the availability of a good rest and all that are at hand (aka planned out) like in my cornfield scenario, where almost always a broadside, standing still shot is taken......WHY NOT a bullet that would come apart?

Bullet "failure" to this ol goat is one that didnt kill the animal, when the shot WAS properly placed.

The "best" bullet would, of course, be one that is unstoppable by any bones, yet expands upon contact. In "my book" the mandatory factors there would be weight along with composition of course but a believer in momentum....mass........Ill take the heavy weights for all around hunting.

I am truly crossing my fingers that these 225grain BT bullets are exactly that, or as close as I can expect. Should they "come apart" in the animal......"failure" to me would mean I lost the animal with a well placed shot.

Time will tell but this is my take on "bullet failure"........ and contrary to almost everyone else's.

On the dang coyotes. When the 350JR rifle gets done and deer season is over, I'm still going to want to use it and "test" things. Ive got some 150 Grain Core Lokt bullets for the 350JR.....I'm goint LIGHT THOSE SUCKERS UP! dagnabit. Get in a little "running target" pratice!

God bless and as always, no member's toes were stepped on intentionally by my rambling.
Steve

 

[Guy Miner]

Interesting ramblings and not that different of experience than mine - mostly have hunted deer, varmints and various birds. Occasionally I'll make an opportunity to hunt something bigger.

As you say, deer are relatively lightly constructed and pretty easy to kill if a guy can shoot straight.

I tend to agree about a fast expanding bullet being very effective on deer. Probably why I tend to shoot them with light-bullet, fast stepping rounds like the 6mm Rem & .25-06, getting the velocity upwards of 3,000 fps and using a bullet that will expand rapidly.

I have successfully and happily hunted with a traditional T-C .50 cal muzzle loader (mere 385 gr bullets though), and a .44 mag revolver. Have also used some bigger, slower velocity center fire rifles. Mostly though, the lighter & faster smallish bore rifles have been my choice for deer. Mostly mule deer.

You've got to figure that most of the hunting bullets sold by Nosler and other makers are intended for deer. Most of us hunters go after deer.

All I ask of a deer bullet is sufficient accuracy, and the ability to penetrate into the vitals and wreck them. An exit is a bonus, but not a requirement.

Regards, Guy

 

[Guy Miner]

A few examples while I enjoy my morning coffee:

.257" 115 gr Berger VLD - have taken three mule deer with the 115 VLD from my .25-06, all were instant drops. One bullet penetrated out. The only example I've got of one recovered from a deer is this crumpled bit of jacket & core. It weighs a scant 33 grains. Many would consider it a "failure" since it didn't penetrate completely through and doesn't have a classic mushroom shape. I cannot argue with the excellent accuracy and instant drop. It's really hard to beat "instant" when it comes to time. Press the trigger, the deer fall like they've simply been shut off. That's failure?

Last year I returned to an old favorite, the .308 Win, flinging a 165 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. Again, excellent accuracy and an instant drop on a fat, young, whitetail buck. Complete penetration. Excellent performance - and with the bonus of an exit wound if I'd had to track the buck, which I didn't. This bullet was recovered from testing in the infamous gallon jugs:

This year I'm planning to use either that same .308 with the 165 Ballistic Tip, or the .25-06 with a 115 gr Nosler (Partition or Ballistic Tip). Any should do just fine. Here's a 115 Partition subjected to the water-jug test. I've never recovered a Partition of any size from deer, or any other game. They tend to go through, even though they open up very rapidly and generally shed a lot of their front section:

I tend to go with fast expanding, accurate bullets for my deer hunting. Works fine for me!

Best of luck this season! Regards, Guy

 

[DrMike]

The only guaranteed way to drop a deer is when the nervous system is disrupted. This means a spine shot (normally a lucky shot) or a shot to the brain. Breaking both shoulders will drop them, for certain. Whitetail can be surprisingly tough. I've shot whitetail that dropped immediately. Necropsy almost always revealed that the spinal cord was disrupted by hydrostatic shock as the bullet passed sufficiently close to damage nerve transmission. Other bucks (dead, though they didn't know it) managed to run an average of thirty to forty yards. I've witnessed whitetails running with both lungs completely gone. Of course, the infamous deer that covers incredible distance with the heart gone is legendary. They are always on alert and the response to noise, pain or the sense of trouble is to run--it is automatic. I suspect that some "bullet failure" is more likely attributable to poor tracking skills of the shooter. On other occasions, bullet failure is attributed to unrealistic expectations and a lack of knowledge of the hearty nature of the particular game hunted. It is still good advice to select a bullet designed for the game you are hunting.

 

[350JR]

Thanks guys.

"On other occasions, bullet failure is attributed to unrealistic expectations and a lack of knowledge of the hearty nature of the particular game hunted. It is still good advice to select a bullet designed for the game you are hunting."

I agree, 110 %. If you all knew the time I've invested reading the bullet tests here and elsewhere you'd probably all agree "I'm losing it". lol

I don't believe in going at things "half azzed" and, as said, THIS area is a bit out of my league.

The proof will be in the pudding of my own tests and experiences but covering all the bases I can before hand has no downside.

Many bullets will "work", IMHO. The 35 bore has natural advantages in bore size, also IMO. 45 and 50 cal black powder guns kill deer .....well too, I shoot a 54. Kinda says it all on my thoughts on bore preferences.

To this "slug state only" for decades deer hunter............a 35 caliber just dont look very big. Common sense has to over rule optical dilusion in that aspect.

Has to seem odd, at the very least, for someone to say that but when one has butchered as many deer as I have with 90 percent taken with a 12 gauge slug, the .358 bore just "looks dinky". :lol:

Seriously, I've shown a couple here my 350 Jr......and have been asked "is that big enough to kill a deer?" Ignorance is alive and well in the shotgun states concerning rifle rounds and all the factors that affect bullet placement.

OT......but linked.

I mentioned "bullet drift" the other day around some discussing "possible"....(ahem) shots at 300 yards. They looked at me like I had lost my mind! For those never having shot varmints with a CF, they have NEVER ever considered that such was even feasable. Forget them believing that allowing for bullet drift on long shots on breezy days is MANDATORY. I have more than a few that flat refuse to believe that the bullet doesn't go EXACTLY where the crosshairs are......ALL the time. *Sigh*.

Habitually, I bring the subject up with anyone I run into who are switching to a CF rifle round here for deer, suggesting they go SHOOT their set up at longer ranges on a windy day (that are as common as the cold during our Nov season). I know I will do so before ever attempting a shot "way out there" but I like to shoot so that is all part of my preparation. Those of you here would be petrified at the number of people I know that shoot their deer gun.......MAYBE 3-6 shots before season. Some flat dont, assuming "its still on". Color me OCD........no thanks. I need to KNOW....and why I'm losing hair over the delay in my rifle getting finished.

Thanks again for the replies.
God Bless
Steve

 

[Oldtrader3]

I have a large amount of energy and time invested in shooting and exterior ballistics specifically. Since my background from an engineer/technical career orientation and with an advanced analytical financial degree and much hands-on, applied analyst experience. This naturally evolved into my approach to shooting as well.

I do not know where you want to go with your part of this on line exchange of expertise relationship, as for myself, I am an advanced "spot and stalk" deer hunter in spades, and stopped counting at 60 deer kills as of 1980. Half of these deer have been shot with my .270 Winchester, 1949, Super Grade, custom Model 70 Winchester. The other 50 or so deer have been killed with everything CF rifle and pistol from a .380 Auto (at 20 feet) to a .375 H&H.

I have killed almost all of the US mainland and eastern Canadian whitetail, plus all of the Blacktail and Mule deer sub species and crosses, except Coues deer which I have never hunted. I have hunted deer in 30+ states and Canada.

Anyhow, welcome 350JR and I look forward to our correspondence.
Charlie

 

[SJB358]

It just SEEMS TO ME, that a bullet that penetrates about midway though a chest of a whitetail (what? 6-8 inches?), expanding from the get go......and then coming totally APART would duplicate the results one gets on the proper predator bullet, AND...........a "dead right there!!!" deer.

Besides the bullet coming TOTALLY apart, this describes what a PT does, BUT it will also keep trucking and leave an easy to follow blood trail. I know deer don't take much bullet to kill, but I prefer exits most of the time. I don't wanna think what would happen when I have that perfect "bullet" that expands all of it's energy in a rib shot, but totally grenades when it is needed to crush shoulders. Again, just about any decent bullet will kill deer or elk when everything is right, I want the one that does it all the time.. Just my .02.

 

[cloverleaf]

Dad shot 130 grain speer's out of his 7MM_Mag. His theroy was about like yours, once that bullet gets in there it should start to come apart and do some damage. If a piece of it makes it all the waty through thats OK as long as that animal is on the ground within 25yds. I dont know that it ever failed him, and the ones I saw as a kid were "bang - crumple". CL

 

[Oldtrader3]

I had a Partition anomaly which astounded me! This was in a pronghorn, face on standing at 200 yards. Shot straight on right between the lungs with a .270 Win, Model 70. The bullet lodged under the tail in the left rear hip about an inch from center. The 130 gr, Partition bullet at 3060 or so MV went through three feet of antelope and was perfect, like a Partition picture lodged under the skin.

The antelope dropped rolled and got up, I swear, at 30 mph, accelerated to 60, passed his herd and I nailed him high lung running (lucky shot?) at about 250 yards and 90 degrees from where he was. relative to me before, the Partition pulped both lungs and the heart. His head is mounted in my living room.

 

[350JR]

Probably old news, but google "bullet failure" sometime and read some of the threads.

Bullet performance discussions are probably as old as black powder rifles so there isnt much said that is "new".

Like the differences we may have in what we prefer a bullet to do, we may not glean from these wreckages the same thing either but , for DEER, there seemed to be a very loose pattern in such reports, at least in my eyes.

First let me be clear on the fact that out of the 350Jr with expected 358 Win ballistics, the only "bullet failure" I can imagine would be one that didnt open up at all, and was not beyond the range that enough velocity was retained to still make it do so.......and that isnt going to happen.

Please keep in mind this is my habitual over thinking of everything and anything in action that simply makes putting together rounds for this wildcat a little more complete, and all part of the "normal" process for me.
Cant ever have too much information. ( I might misconstrue it but cant have TOO MUCH, lol)

Case in point is, I got elected to pick bullets for a hunting buddy, but have to use HIS perameters doing so which run "the cheapest bullet we can get that will repeatedly kill deer" (all within our range of shots of course).

I got elected because, he dont load, he dont have a computer and..silly guy, he had enough faith in my thought processes that when I mentioned the 350 JR idea and that I was going to go with it, he jumped right on the wagon with both feet and also bought a 350 Rem mag rifle to convert.

For multiple reasons I attempted to talk him out of it, and short of just not telling him where I was having it done and refusing to send the rifle, I had no way to successfully do that so I ran the gauntlet of .358 bullets out there and for inexpensive (we found a deal, believe me), enough weight, decent feedback online I picked the 220 Grain Speer hotcore.....for him.

That is mentioned because of what I picked up from a couple hundred stories of bullet failures.

Maybe I was subconsciously "looking for it" but I tried to just run through the horror/not horror stories on bullet failure to see if there happened to be anything jump out at me. Anything with any kind of consistancy from site to site.

Two things seemed to be mentioned more than anything else.

The most prevalent thing that appeared to my eyes within reported bullet failures was the correlation of the bullet's speed at impact, bullet weight, and of course bullet composition. Just a combo that didnt work right.

Regardless of the bullet mfg (all of them were mentioned at one point or another, even partitions, with multiple mentions of the Ballistic tip bullets) the failure (these were reported as TRUE failures, aka very little penetration, cratering on the deer, normally hitting bone) was blamed on the bullet. Nothing else. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........let's continue. Maybe Im missing the boat here.

The second thing that I noticed, and was not a surprise to me was that RARELY (not sure I saw a single incident but havent read every single post available) was "bullet failure" reported on a round shooting a bullet LARGER THAN .308 diameter.

One doesnt have to look far (including the kind replies above) to know that high speed, lighter weight, smaller bore bullets indeed WORK, and have for decades. Their use is common for hunters requiring a flatter trajectory for "out west" long ranges.

I'm "just" (har har) old enough to remember a time when a very well known and beloved sports writer preached that "few hunters have the skill to shoot 300 yards or more, and should not do so". (but danged if I can recall NOW who it was) Alive today he would absolutely flip out watching a particular tv show that comes to mind!

It just appears that a few (most?) expect too much from a single bullet type and weight. Screaming along at what I am used to in varmint round velocities, bullets that are fairly light weight and BUILT to expand downrange.......why indeed would they NOT explode on a shoulder shot at very close range? This ol goat would expect that to be the case and can betcha there are some shooters here that already knew that and go OUT of their way to NOT hit a shoulder with such bullets, perhaps at ANY range, let alone very close range.

I'm of the opinion that these exact same bullets do indeed perform as I mentioned in my first post, that being they go in......and come apart causing massive destruction. What window of REAL impact velocities that happens may or not be a narrow one. I certainly dont have the answer to that one but coming UN-together on a close range impact with even a deer shoulder/scapula? Not a surprise, IMO.

True. Bullet mfgrs quote minimum and sometimes maximum velocities for expansion. Throw a shoulder bone in there and I feel the equation for such just went out the window.

That wasn't ACTUALLY bullet failure, at least not alone. It was more a "mental failure" on the shooter's part. (geez, Im gonna get so hammered here on that one. NO OFFENSE to ANYONE...PLEASE!) There appears to be a bit more involved than "picking the right bullet for the right game animal".

Is not the velocity at impact MORE of a consideration on the smaller diameter, lighter bullets? Bigger bore, heavier bullets perhaps just dont get mentioned as much since their impact velocities dont change as rapidly? Or is it just the over all mass of such still cause havoc with a deer sized critter?

I don't believe that there IS a 358 diameter bullet existing that wont almost always go through a whitetail and if there is one, it's very light weight. A "bullet failure" in a big bore round would more likely be one that didnt open for squat. IMHO, the bigger the bore, the less that would matter. Case in point is my 54 caliber black powder gun. Big going in, big going out. Expand? who cares?

Ignorant and inexperienced with CF rounds for deer, I have to say the reason for all my searching and questions about such and such bullets for the 350JR was BASED ON, the fear of one NOT opening up. (again,,,,,,,,dang these just dont look very big to us Hoosiers, LOL)

Some (not here) "explained" to me that my first choice of the discontinued 358 bore, 225 gr NBT was a "mistake" due to them "failing" and coming apart .......yet not a single person said a WORD about them NOT PENETRATING on deer. Not in a 358 bore at the velocities I expect to sling them out there. OVER 3000 fps......yeah.....maybe. Again I "guess" that would be at too close of impact range. If they penetrate as expected, expanding or coming apart, the resulting dead deer is still going to be a dead deer. What bullet failure?

Lighter, faster bullets super expanding inside a deer? Oh yeah..That would work but bigger bore and heavier just seem "safer" for my ranges and uses.

All in all, I dont think I could have picked a better bore size myself, even if IN regs hadnt carved it in stone (or bigger).

Yep, I could also use the mentioned Speer 220 grain bullets I picked up for my buddy. I dont feel Id be limited much by doing so (or wouldnt have bought them for him...not a compete jerk, lol) but I gotta be different and have tried to find what I feel may be the ultimate, all round, out to 300 yards (right) bullet for my wildcat.

If I "dust" one on a shoulder....be sure. ILL TELL YOU ABOUT IT (probably with more questions too).

Again, an ol fart rambling. Up late again.
No offense guys.
God Bless
Steve

 

[Oldtrader3]

Steve, this is .35 caliber Valhalla here! These guys won't let up for a minute, blathering about their .35 Whelens and other (Scotty is having a .358 Norma built) .35 caliber rifles. I am a .338 guy but many folks here can give you lots of data and knowledge about shooting and hunting with the various .358's and even .366's (9.3mm).

Good luck in you quest for a big bodied Indiana whitetail, persistence will pay off for you , I am sure.

My bullet quest was short and simple. I believed what I read and heard about and by John Nosler and duplicated some of his experiences with great accuracy and success. This lead me to adopt the Nosler Partition bullet as my game bullet for most applications in 1963 and life has been simple through many deer and elk kills ever since. At least until the Nosler AccuBond came on the scene and muddied the waters but in a good way.

I am still threading my way through this conundrum with the .338 dia, 250 gr bullets in the .340 Weatherly. These are two of the best game bullets ever made for the .340 application for sure on medium to heavy game, given the velocity of these bullets in the crushing .340 Bee. I guess that this choice issue is really a good problem to have with (2) bullets as good as these are?

 

[350JR]

Gunsmith just sent me an email with info that the reamer is hitting the mail tomorrow!!


Speer 220s (buddys choice with "help") still not here but

"I got bullets to work up loads for and test!!"

(no one has TAC in stock here either.......grrrrrrrrrr....ding dang, rotten, no good, filty, expensive hazmat BS anyway! :roll: )

I'm also going to test my belief that "pretty rifles shoot better" by switching stocks off my 350 RM to the 350 JR. :lol:

Let's see.......what to use for bullet tests.....hmmmmmm.

 

[SJB358]

That 220 Speer is a tough one and very accurate, as is the 225 BT if it works for ya.

 

[FOTIS]

That 220 Speer is a tough one and very accurate, as is the 225 BT if it works for ya.

Yes it is ! Went lengthwise through my hog!

 

[DrMike]

This was taken with Speer 220 grain FN bullets.

It worked pretty well. The first shot (from a .356 Model 94) broke both shoulders. Of six shots into this boar grizzly, I recovered one bullet that passed through the hump, along the left font paw, lodging under the foot pad. Two other cores were recovered from the opposing shoulder. Not bad performance for a cup and core bullet.

 

[350JR]

Dang, Nice photos guys.......Its giving me "the fever".....WONT BE LONG!

 

[Oldtrader3]

Nice pictures. Like the stock change.

 

[BF375]

It just SEEMS TO ME, that a bullet that penetrates about midway though a chest of a whitetail (what? 6-8 inches?), expanding from the get go......and then coming totally APART would duplicate the results one gets on the proper predator bullet, AND...........a "dead right there!!!" deer.

Sounds nice in theory but it just does not always work that way.