Bullet performance study information

[Elkman]

As most of you know we have a lot of spirited discussions regarding bullet performance and what works best on certain types of game and what our personal preferences are. I have mentioned a couple of times that I had some interesting research information documenting penetration, and weight retention. The research was done by Gary Sciuchetti from Mead Washington in the late 1990's. I purchased it through an outdoor magazine and its in the form of a narrative and a 2'x 3' poster which shows the actual bullets recovered. What Gary did was tested most of the popular bullets available, by the major manufactures at the time, His tested 180 grain ,.308 diameter bullets. He shot them at velocities from 1700 through 3100 fps at 100 fps intervals into road killed deer to start with, and then water soaked telephone books. He shot three of each manufacture at each velocity. He gave up his testing on deer because on the variables in shot placement. A bone strike for example gave a different reaction than one that missed the bone and it was to hard to insure that every shot was consistent. The water soaked telephone books gave him a consistent media to test into. The bullets tested were, A-Square Dead Tough, Alaska Kodiak. Allred TCL-SF, Armfield, Barnes X, Bitterroot Bonded, Blue Mtn SSP Bonded, Elkhorn FB, Federal Classic Hi Shok, Hawk .030 Jacket, Hawk ,035 Jacket, Hornady Interlock, Hornady RN, Jensen J26, Nosler BT, Nosler PT, Remington BP, Remington PSPCL, Remington RNSPCL, Seirra Gameking, Seirra Match king, Seirra Prohunter SP, Seirra Prohunter RN, Speer Grand Slam, Speer Magtip,Speer RN,Speer SBT, Wwift A-Frame, Trophy Bear Claw, Winchester Fail Safe 2700-3000, Winchester PP 06, -300 mag, Winchester Silvertip. This process must have taken months. Many of the bullets that we use today were tested and varified much of what I have seen myself and what others posted on the forum. I will try and summerize what I think would be the most interesting to forum members. Generally speaking at all velocities the all copper bullets out penetrated their counterparts with an average penetration of 21", at 3100 fps, however "the expansion channel created by these bullets is realtively narrow" they also retained 95% or their weight or more at all velocities. At 3100 fps the bonded bullets , Bitterroot, Speer GS, Trophy Bear Claw, Kodiak, Partition, Swift , A-Frame averaged 16" of penetration but varied significantly in weight retention. The Bitterroot retained 95%. The Partition, and the A-Square both retained 70% of their original weight. The Allred, Swift, and Blue Mountain Bonded, Trophy Bear Claw and Speer GS averaged 13'of penetration and all but the GS (at 60%) retained 90% of their weight. Something notable in the testing is that the Trophy Bear Claw and the Partition launched at 1900 Fps penetrated 64" and 59 " respectively. The Remington RN CL was a real suprise to me, it significantly out preformed the Remington PSP CL at all velocities including 3100 fps its performance was very similar to the Speer GS. It is readily apparent that bullets such as the Hornady Interlock, Sierrra Gameking, Sierra Prohunter, Speer Mag tip, Speer RN, are designed for velocities up to 2800 fps. The Winchester PP and Silvertip do well up to 2900 . The Sierra Matchking fragmented at all velocities and while penetration was good up to 2600fps (16") at 2700fps it only retained 30% of its weight. The weight retention on all bullets (except the copper which already retained 95% at 3100 fps) was increased as the velocity decreased. For example the Hornady BTSP Interlock, penetrated 11" and retained aprox 40% of its weight at 3100 fps, but at 2700 fps it penetrated 13" and retained 60% of its weight.
I hope you find this interesting and usefull and that I presented it so that it is readily understood. Its a lot of data to try and explain in writing but a very worthwhile endeavor by the author.

 

[Guy Miner]

Good stuff - I didn't note any real surprises. Slow a conventional bullet down a bit and it usually expands less, penetrates better & retains more weight - good thing to pound into our heads and keep though! :grin:

 

[Elkman]

Guy that is the right idea! One has to remember that a 300 mag for example is launching that bullet at say 3100 fps. At 200 yards that speed has been reduced by say 400 fps, so now you bullet preformes like it a 2700 fps second bullet. Or the same bullet out of the muzzle of a 30:06. What I saw most from the data is that there are some bullets that are going to hang together much better on a close range hit than others. The difference is more prominate on close range encounters. In addition he did not calculate or discuss the BC of any of the bullets and that is also a factor in bullet selection for many hunters. Any way he spent a lot of time and I thought it was worth sharing.

 

[SJB358]

That was a great read Bill. Thanks for taking the time to retype the high points. Seems odd, but I haven't had any hits yet that I can call bullet failure per se. I did have the 200gr Factory Loads for the 35 Whelen not exit on broadside deer, and all that was left was lead and jacket pieces, but both did die pretty fast. Funny thing was, both shots were at 150 and 250 yards! All the other animals with a few different bullets have died with exit holes. Scotty

 

[rick smith]

I have his chart posted in my reloading shop. Sure generates a lot of discussion.Rick.

 

[ACLakey]

Great information. Far too many people worry about BC and performance at 500+ yards when they usually don't have the capibility to take game at those ranges where high BC is a benifit. In contrast I feel they should be looking for bullet performance at the velocity their bullets are at under normal hunting distances. Where can we get a copy of the chart?

 

[Elkman]

AC
My copy came from Gary D Sciuchetti at 16410 E Bill Gulch Rd. Mead Wa 99021-8741. Whether or not he is still around I do not know.

 

[rick smith]

Think the original article was in Rifle or Handloader. I will check my copy and let you know if that info is on the chart.Rick.

 

[rick smith]

Handloader # 193.Rick.

 

[Greg Nolan]

Tracks pretty good with the old read of my day. The round nose was an awsome bullet out to normal ranges. I have to admit I get carried away with long range potential but in defense the animals and huntable areas are fewer and the competition stiffer. I want to be prepared for that one shot at whatever range I practiced at and am comfortible with.
Thank you for the info.
Greg

 

[hardpan]

Great data, thanks.

I have a separate question.
1) is weight retention always better? In my experience, on thin skinned game like deer, a bullet that opens quickly, even comes apart will give a quicker and cleaner kill in heart, lung and even in the gut a bit. I use accubonds which hold together pretty well, except for the very thin skin and the polymer tip. But several hunters that use good old partitions and BTs actually bring their game down sooner than I do with the Partition. When I cleaned their game, I noticed that even on a lung shot, the heart and arteries had way more destruction. But with an AB, the bullet exits with about a 1 inch exit wound. Not nearly as much damage and often a lot more tracking.

For larger game and for dangerous larger game, I want that penetration and retention, but not so much for whitetails, antelope and mule deer.

 

[SJB358]

Hardpan, I agree with you on the deer bullets. I would rather use bullets on deer that cause massive wounds and end them fast. My problem is much of the time that I am hunting deer, I am also hunting elk and black bear at the same time. So therefore, I tend to load for heaviest game intended. I kinda started making two loads for each of my rifles, one with a BT and the other with the same weight PT and so far it has been easy enough, but more times than not, I end up grabbing the PT load. Scotty

 

[Guy Miner]

"is weight retention always better?"

Hardpan - I don't think weight retention is always better, not at all. Like you, I've seen some terrific fast kills on deer from rapid - expanding bullets like the Ballistic Tip, the old Solid Base, and others...

With the Partition, it's been said a hunter gets the best of both worlds, a soft front end that expands violently, and the protected rear section that continues to drive forward for deep penetration. I've found that to be true, and desirable.

The B-Tip is pretty much a perfect deer bullet IMHO.

 

[Elkman]

On deer sized game the penetration and weight retention is less important unless you get a shot at a large mulie or whitetail buck going away, then you want all you can get.
On larger game particulary elk, moose, bear, I believe that you want all you can get. For instance if you hit an elk (doesn't have to be a large one) in the front shoulder and the bullet fragments and/or doesn't carry through/break the shoulder you have an elk that can go a long way.(Several miles in my dad's case). You will do a large amout of damage and the elk will die but you may not recover it. You have to break that shoulder bone and penetrate through to get the job done. A quartering away shot is also another example, if you hit a little far back in the guts you need a bullet that will get through and into the heart lung area not quit 1/2 way there. Same with a bullet that fragments, it will kill but never reach the heart lung region. Again same result but the animal is dead a long ways away and with a tough tracking job because of little blood loss.
I typically hunt in very steep country where gravity is the animals friend when going down hill, and with a not so perfect hit they will go all the wayyyyyyy to the bottom of the canyon and may lay down there or follow the valley or drainage on down a ways. Tough, tough job. I know that a lot of hunters kill elk and never have this kind of a problem. There are two reasons for this, one is that they "never" take other than a broadside shot or that they have just not hit the right one. Elk are not "typically" mythical in there ability to absorb energy however there are a few that are and they can absorb lots of lead once they get there steam up and head out to somewhere else. If you hunt them long enough and you shoot enough of them you are going to get a few that are going to go long and you will have a very tough job.
Like Scotty say's pack more than you need and plan for the worst because you want to be prepared when it happens.

Nuff from me, got to go PT

 

[DrMike]

Bill,

I'm enjoying this post. Perhaps that is because it fuels my own views concerning bullet performance. To be certain, when I encounter large game in the mountains or dark spruce timbers, I know that they can travel a long way if the bullet fails to reach the vitals. I also know that we seldom get a perfect shot. I want enough "oomph" to penetrate hide, muscle and bone and disrupt major vital systems. That means I need a bullet with integrity at impact velocities.

 

[bullet]

Thank you for taking the time to post the above results. + one with what Mike just said. Once again, thank you.

 

[Elkman]

Dr. Mike
You have to be down to hours???????? I will bet you are already pumped up and ready to rumble, have a great hunt and brring us lots of pictures.

Thanks all for the positive comments, it wasn't my work as you know but trying to condense the explination did take some work. I am still getting questions on another forum regarding specific bullets and their performance.
:grin:

 

[DrMike]

I was out for moose Sunday morning. I have a grizzly spotted and intend to be out on Friday morning. He is apparently quite an aggressive bear which should make for an exciting hunt. I'll be carrying my 350 RM. If I see a moose, I'll tag him as well. There are lots of large black bears in this zone as well, and I haven't taken one for a couple of years. I'm carrying my camera.

 

[FOTIS]

Handloader # 193.Rick.

yup!

 

[Oldtrader3]

Bill, as I said before, the 180 gr Remington CL roundnose has been a great round for use in the non-magnum .308 calibers for many years. When I lived in the southern US, back in the 1960's, I hunted mostly with a .300 Savage Model 722, Rem and a Ruger #1, .308 Win. I loaded both of these rounds to about 2600, plus or minus, with the 180 grain RN Core Lokt and killed several running whitetails with this loading. No deer ever hit with this load was lost or travelled more than 20 yards.

This chart is very useful knowledge for everyone on the forum who uses these bullets in various handloads. THere is also another one that I would like to find that I believe was in American Hunter back in the 1960's regarding penetration and bullet performance on large animals, specifically Brown Bear. I would like to find that article and reproduce it. I still remember it after all of these yaears.