Disturbed as I've ever been

salmonchaser

Handloader
Dec 13, 2013
3,458
825
Immediately following the Columbine massacre there was a convining of Washington Chiefs and Sheriffs, what do we do now. There was no active shooter protocol in the US. Our commander stood up holding five pages, covered in additional hand scribbled notes. This is what we've been doing for the last couple of days, each iteration we've made some changes. It's working pretty good. We've also ordered heavy vests and helmets for all patrol cars.
Our MOS has been rewritten quite simply, the shooter will be pursued until he is eliminated or surrenders regardless of personal risk.
Our plan was adopted in king county and of course it continued to change as the bugs were worked out. Throughout my 20year SWAT career we trained active shooter with the schools, neighbor agencies, fire, public works, twice a year. Squad level training occurs quarterly.
Some time after we started I squandered my range training budget on simmunitions rifles, pistols and ammunition.
On that day in Uvalde I became unconsolable, Catherine said I should wait until an investigation is complete. Hemingway did not speak for all the men who were there, many who wondered out load what are we doing? The officer who advanced by himself and found himself alone, he belongs in the but once club......
Perhaps the only justice will be " A coward dies a thousand times, the brave but once" loosely from Hemingway
 

ShadeTree

Handloader
Mar 6, 2017
2,768
1,215
There's no way around it. A complete failure. I don't have all the answers, but I can think of at least 10 of my neighbors that would've at least interrupted and distracted, if not stopped that shooter and done it with zero training. Me the same and that's in no way meant to be something special, it's basic instinct. It does not take training to defend children.......everything else goes out the window.

Engaging doesn't take training. Anybody can engage without training..........I mean do something, anything. It might not work out but it's impossible to be worse than doing nothing in a highly immediate emergency and ongoing situation such as that involving children being systematically executed.

Stephen Willeford the plumber in Texas did something when he heard gunfire at his neighborhood church. Ran out of his house without his shoes on carrying his AR-15, engaged and hit the shooter after being shot at himself, flagged down a man he didn't know in a pickup and jumped in and ordered a chase of the shooter through numerous intersections. Forced the shooter to run out of options and end his own life. Stopped him cold with no thought to "safety first." Heck he didn't know any better, he just did.

It isn't even about being cautious about degrading law enforcement. At their core, they are men. This was children and they stood there wondering what to do next, or what they could do next. Crippled I guess by fear of doing the wrong thing or not following command. I have no answer of what could cause a man to stand there while children are being executed. Policeman or not.........nothing to do with it.
 

Guy Miner

Master Loader
Apr 6, 2006
16,654
1,393
Yup. The cops in Ulvalde appear to have completely ignored all the training that police officers have had over the past 20 years that taught us to "get in there and stop the killing."

Terrible performance! I can think of reasons why they stood around, doing nothing, but that doesn't make it right.

What was right to do, was to go on in and try to save some victims by stopping the killer. As quickly as possible.

I do remember when our Active Shooter training started many years ago, that some cops, mostly old-timers were very reluctant to form up a little team and go in. I heard comments like "I don't get paid to do that." or "This isn't the Marines!" Things like that. But by and large the guys 'n gals liked the change.

Before that it had been "surround the place, get a hostage negotiator and call SWAT." Which was pretty awful too, 'cause the SWAT team takes a while to form up and get there... There's a time to wait, but not when kiddos are being killed.

I've been pretty ticked off about it all myself.

Guy
 

ShadeTree

Handloader
Mar 6, 2017
2,768
1,215
Well you can't legislate morality, and I guess you can't train in courage, or train out cowardice.

My Bible says that in the last days men's hearts will fail them, so maybe it's the times we are in.

I cannot imagine 1 officer let alone a squad of officers in the 1950's, standing around with no direction within themselves, for an unfathomable amount of time while a single individual continued killing children of their own community. It is beyond my comprehension both then and now. Perhaps I am naive.
 
Apr 17, 2020
212
183
People are very different than they used to be. In the short time I've lived, I've watched my generation grow up and traditional values vanish. I wish I could say there was something else to expect, but this is what I believed people were becoming for years now. Even though I anticipated this kind of thing, it still is shocking that somebody could really just stand there like that. I would be incapable of doing the same.
 

cloverleaf

Handloader
Sep 10, 2006
3,897
234
"Crippled I guess by fear of doing the wrong thing or not following command. I have no answer of what could cause a man to stand there while children are being executed. "
Unfortunately we have to often become a society (myself included I'm often afraid) who are afraid to do what we know is the right thing. If it dosent agree with the prevailing point of view, at the moment, it will make your life miserable. These are not always major things we give away. For example, I live in a town home community, and in response to a infestation of mice in my container garden, like a responsible neighbor, I put out traps and dealt with the problem. Or so I thought...my tree hugging neighbor, reported me to the home owners assoc. who promptly issued an edict to all home owners "banning" traps. Some one then went so far as to call the city inspector, who came to my home with apparent permission, given by some one, to enter and inspect my home.... I have not spoken to my neighbors in a year, No fresh tomatoes this year. We give it away a little at a time.... and die a thousand times.
Similarly, this year, after thirty+ years working in the human services field, and submitting to a background check each year, this year I was told that to continue working in the field, for any employer, I would need to be finger printed.
My response to the VP and HR of my company was "I'm not a criminal yet, how can you force me to get printed...." The response was, "well the governor signed this into law in 2020". Because of the pandemic, they haven't mandated its implementation until now. So get printed or loose my job, AND field of work of some 30 years.... Tomorrow is my 30th anniversary. A little at a time... Sorry not to high jack a thread....

Not excusing the lack of action in Uvalde. I have not been called upon for that kind of courage in a moment. I have my opinions and I will judge but I pray that, I would have the clarity and understanding to make better decisions, including giving my life, than seem to have been made on that day. CL
 

Vince2

Beginner
Jan 21, 2022
193
214
How can the Uvalde police officers look at themselves in the mirror?

We really have reached the point where there is no shame.

Vince
 

truck driver

Ammo Smith
Mar 11, 2013
6,913
250
I can't say what I think of what happened because Jim or Fotis would give me time out, so I'll keep my thoughts to myself. :oops:
 

Vince2

Beginner
Jan 21, 2022
193
214
I’m starting a new thread on this topic with some good information on what transpired in Uvalde so as to not derail this thread.
 
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