Maximum acceptable group size?

[Alderman]

I like reading about other people’s hunting firearms and how they perform where they hunt in their conditions.


Just curious what others think and do. For my hunting purposes I am mostly content to go afield with a load that will group three shots in an inch at 100 yards.

Although I’ve opportunity to shoot all I want, my equipment is for the most part off the shelf common firearms and I’ve never developed the ability to shoot one hole groups except on the rare occasion when luck shines fair upon me.

In all my years of hunting here in the PNW I have seldom had the need to shoot much longer than 200 yards at a game animal. While there are places where long shots are available, due to terrain and vegetation, recovery of the animal is beyond what I am willing or capable of doing so I am limited on my shooting opportunities. Even more so as I get older and the help of friends gets less available.

I have had opportunity to go on 1/2 dozen Antelope hunts in Eastern Oregon where the distances increase so the need for precision does become more critical over there.

I realize most people probably hunt where conditions demand greater accuracy than what I need So just hoping to hear from others about your hunting experiences and what is acceptable accuracy before you. go in pursuit of big game.

Would also be interested in what equipment (firearm, optic, bullet, etc.) gets the job done for you.


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[Alabusa]

Off a bench, under perfect conditions, I am not happy with less than 1/2 moa.

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[HAWKEYESATX]

Now, for me, if I´m hunting deer, elk, carribou, and moose, 1.5 inches at 100 yds is the most.
Now, if I´m hunting varmints, .5 - 1.0 inch is what I look for.
In the field, a tuned rifle that will shoot .5 inches is seldom needed, because its the condition of what you hunt makes the difference. If you´re going over hill and dale, or hunting thick brush, a .5 inch group is negated by breathing, and physical condition, and also if you jump something and you´re standing straight up, then you need to practice different shooting positions to prepare yourself.

Hawk

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[Blkram]

I like 1" groups at 100 yards from the bench as a standard, and just about all my rifles have proven that accurate. I do have some rifles now that have yet to be fired at the range for accuracy, so we shall see.
I do have several rifles capable of 1/2" groups and that is a great thing! I know I have produced some small groups from the bench over the years and that always makes me feel good.

In all reality, in the field, from field shooting positions, can I still produce 1/2" or 1" groups at 100 yards..for some rifles, yes. For others, I am not sure that I can, but I am not as worried about them and that accuracy, as they have proven effective at harvesting game cleanly under field conditions and that is the true test of their accuracy and effectiveness. And the confidence that experience has given me in my accuracy with them is worth more than group size bragging rights.

These harvests afield have been with bolt actions, lever actions and single shots over the years, with open sights, peep sights and scopes (mostly Leupold from fixed 2.5 power and variables from 1.5-5 up to 4.5-14x40).

Bullets have ranged in factory ammunition and handloads from Nosler Partitions, Ballistic Tips and AccuBonds, Sierra SGK's, Speer Hot Cor's, Barnes X and TSX bullets, and one animal harvested with the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and one other with a Berger Hybrid Hunting bullet, and Winchester Power Points and Silvertips.

Terrain has ranged from dense, dark timber, to open aspen groves and small meadows, open farmland and fields, to mountain alpine, and open prairies. My average distance harvesting big game in BC , Alberta and Saskatchewan, from antelope to bison, has been 137 yards over the past 36 years. Shortest shot 15 yards, to longest at 475 yards. Can count on one hand the number harvested over 300 yards, and have digits to spare.

 

[ShadeTree]

I like 1" groups at 100 yards from the bench as a standard, and just about all my rifles have proven that accurate. I do have some rifles now that have yet to be fired at the range for accuracy, so we shall see.
I do have several rifles capable of 1/2" groups and that is a great thing! I know I have produced some small groups from the bench over the years and that always makes me feel good.

In all reality, in the field, from field shooting positions, can I still produce 1/2" or 1" groups at 100 yards..for some rifles, yes. For others, I am not sure that I can, but I am not as worried about them and that accuracy, as they have proven effective at harvesting game cleanly under field conditions and that is the true test of their accuracy and effectiveness. And the confidence that experience has given me in my accuracy with them is worth more than group size bragging rights.

These harvests afield have been with bolt actions, lever actions and single shots over the years, with open sights, peep sights and scopes (mostly Leupold from fixed 2.5 power and variables from 1.5-5 up to 4.5-14x40).

Bullets have ranged in factory ammunition and handloads from Nosler Partitions, Ballistic Tips and AccuBonds, Sierra SGK's, Speer Hot Cor's, Barnes X and TSX bullets, and one animal harvested with the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and one other with a Berger Hybrid Hunting bullet, and Winchester Power Points and Silvertips.

Terrain has ranged from dense, dark timber, to open aspen groves and small meadows, open farmland and fields, to mountain alpine, and open prairies. My average distance harvesting big game in BC , Alberta and Saskatchewan, from antelope to bison, has been 137 yards over the past 36 years. Shortest shot 15 yards, to longest at 475 yards. Can count on one hand the number harvested over 300 yards, and have digits to spare.

Blkram, I think that is a pretty accurate account of the norm. There are places in this country where a bumble bee can sit on his rear end and see for 1/2 a mile, but in general most game I believe is seen and killed under 200 yds.

In my part of the country the average shot of any distance is taken from a seated position......terrain, etc doesn't usually allow for many prone shots. With scoped rifles I like to practice 100 through 200 yds from a seated position. Whatever distance you can keep them all in a paper plate from your typical field position with that rifle, you're good to go in my opinion.

Iron sights I practice from 50-100yds.

 

[SJB358]

My quest is a rifle that’ll keep 10 shots in a 1.5” group. I don’t typically just hammer out 10, but if I think it’s a solid load 10 at a POI at 1.5” gives me a ton of confidence everything is working as well as it should. I will do that a time or two and it usually verifies everything is good. I’ve shot a bunch of great 3 shots groups and then go back the following day and not see those results I’ve learned that a consistent POI with a good load will keep them in a decent sized group that’ll carry out to my max range.

 

[RaySendero]

Hunting with a rifle that shoots the maximum size groups
is like
Hunting with a rifle chambered for the minimal size cartridge.

I'm not particularly interested in doing either!

 

[PJGunner]

I like rifles that shoot tiny groups from the bench just like everyone else but I'm also a realist in the fact,"There ain't any bench rests out in the boonies."

What if you get a rifle that either didn't shoot for you or you got into it cheap because the previous owner couldn't get decent groups but you bought it anyway? (I love a challenge :shock: )

Case in point, I once owned a mannlicher-Schoenaur 6.5x54 that a deceased friend left for me in his will. Some low life stole it back in 1975 and I've never been able to find a replacement that I could afford. Ruger came out with their RSI which handled like the M-S and in .308 was a cartridge I liked anyway. Still more expensive that I was willing to pay. A wife, four kids, mortgage and car payments along with the necessities of life got in the way. The I saw the RSI in the paper and gave the guy a call. He was very up front that the gun just was not accurate but I gambled and bought it anyway. It came with scope, brass, factory ammo, died, powder and bullets.
all for $200.
Long story short, it took a bit over two years to find a load that would deliver a consistent 1.5" or less. It turned out to be the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core over W760 for a velocity of 2550 FPS, no barn burned but it met the standard. Switch to a different 165 gr. bullet and everything goes straight to hell. The rifle really is a one trick pony. I did a little tinkering with that metal muzzle cap and now the gun shoots as tight as 1.25" about half the time.
I came into two more of those rifles cheap for the same reason as the first, poor accuracy and weird as it may sound working up to that 165/W760 load has worked every time. :?: :?: :?:
That first rifle has accounted for quite a few Arizona Mule Deer at ranges from 30 feet to 250 yards.
Paul B.

 

[Guy Miner]

Oh gosh - really depends on what use I've got in mind for the rifle.

Some need to be more accurate than others; target rifle, varmint rifle, the old SWAT rifle turned hunting rifle also tends to be real accurate. Those are all capable of 1/2 MOA 3-shot groups for me:

.204 Ruger, CZ 527 with a 4.5-14x Leupold. Most accurate so far is the 35 grain Berger hollow point, but others aren't far behind.

6mm Creedmoor, Ruger Precision Rifle - maybe not always 1/2 MOA, but when I can keep all my shots on a 4x4" steel gong at 600 yards... Well, Ruger did something right with this rifle. I've got a 6-24 Vortex on it and so far have only loaded 108 gr Hornady ELD-M match bullets. Either Superformance or H4350 work great.

.308 Win, Rem 700 VS, with the Krieger barrel. I used to shoot this a LOT. It was my SWAT rifle for the 12 years I was sniper team leader for the county team. If I went to a rifle range, it was always the first priority. It still shoots great. I don't shoot it as much anymore, but it's an old friend. Currently it has a 6x SWFA scope, and that suits it well.

Those are my three most accurate. They have done 1/2 MOA groups. The 6mm and the 308, even out at 600 yards.

The others are hunting rifles, a muzzle loader with sights, a 30-30 Glenfield with sights, I don't expect to hit nearly as well with them.

The Twins, the 25-06 & 30-06 Rem 700 CDL's, they're solid MOA or a bit better. The 25-06 has made several kills on coyotes & mule deer from 350 - 420 yards. That's good. Both have 6x Leupold scopes. Mostly I shoot 115 & 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets from them.

Jury is still out on exactly how accurate the 7mm Rem Mag Ruger Number One is - at this point I'm confident it's capable of One MOA accuracy, but I really haven't shot it all that much yet. That's about to change as I'm hoping to use it as my primary hunting rifle this season.

Both 375's, the Ruger Number One and the Model 70, hover around an inch at a hundred. The Ruger has broken that quite a few times. The Model 70... Ya, I think it has a lot more accuracy potential than I've reached with it so far. I've owned the rifle quite a while, and have been happy just pounding the steel at 300 with it from field positions. Does have a Douglas barrel, and a heavy, well proportioned walnut stock. It's a shooter, no doubt. How accurate? I dunno. If I miss, it's my fault.

Except for the three top rifles: 204, 6mm and 308, I'm pretty casual about the accuracy and am satisfied with MOA for the scoped bolt actions.

FWIW, Guy

 

[mcseal2]

The two rifles I hunt with the most are really reliable at putting the first cold bore shot into the same place every shot. Clean barrel or dirty barrel, they just shoot that first cold bore shot right on. I sometimes shoot a 3 or 5 shot group over 3 to 5 days. During the rifle season around home I keep the same target up on my board at home and shoot it every day or two after the morning hunt when I get home. It's a great confidence builder to sit down and know my rifle is on quick during the season.

Both will shoot under 1 MOA, but neither is a 1/2" gun with the current hunting load I use. They both will shoot better, just not with the bullet I choose to hunt with in them. Both are good at ringing the gong at 600 yards when I take them to do that.

 

[Teknys]

The two rifles I hunt with the most are really reliable at putting the first cold bore shot into the same place every shot.

There you go. That's where I'm at. Good comments above from many. Elk and Deer where I hunt don't stand there after the first shot so to say I can put the second shot .....
I'm like most everyone - strive for the smallest group with in reason. Couple of guns can make one hole and couple are hard pressed for 1.5 MOA. I have higher expectations for the guns that will be used at longer ranges.

 

[KinleyWater]

Seven feet six inches max. I figure anything more than that and you're just going to miss :grin:

I like to keep 3-5 in an inch-ish, but I concur that cold bore shot consistency is key. Yes, sometimes I might have to shoot 2 or 3 times and it is important they all hit to the same POA, more or less, but, I still think a good, solid first hit is paramount.

 

[Elkman]

1 inch for me also. My average shot on elk is 300 yards, as I hunt in hilly mountainous country. Longest measured shot to date has been 540 yards. Most of my shots are from the prone position with a good solid rests and lots of time. Shortest shot? Probably 25 yards or a little less, a 10 inch group is adequate for that range.

 

[gbflyer]

I hunt with a guy who has a Remington 700 in 7mm RM with one of those black Tupperware stocks on it. Some kind of Leupold set and forget scope. It gets a bore snake pulled through it once a year. He can’t shoot a group for beans on a paper target. We will take a verification shot before we hunt, if he’s 3” or so high of the bull and windage is close, the rifle goes back in the case. He averages an elk every other year, on public land. Sometimes it’s antlerless, sometimes a rag horn and there’s been a couple pretty respectable bulls. He’s a meat hunter. If there is an elk 500 yards or closer, it’s dead. Oh yeah, uses factory 150gr Remington Corelokts.

While shooting small groups on the bench or over a pack builds a lot of confidence, there’s so much more to it. I used to get all twisted up about it, now I don’t. I agree with the poster above who wrote about making the first shot count. Take a rifle you’re confident in that will put the first one where you want it. Chances are a follow up is going to be taken under stress and the point of impact is gonna be much different than the 3 shot group on the bench.

Recently I’ve been practicing more with irons. I know there aren’t gonna be any little tiny groups. Kinda relaxing, actually.

 

[FOTIS]

Big game .75" or less
Varmint .5" or less
Levers 1" or less

These are verified over and over again.
With the levers I can take 1.5" but I got lucky with my load development and they shoot much better.

 

[Guy Miner]

Big game .75" or less
Varmint .5" or less
Levers 1" or less

These are verified over and over again.
With the levers I can take 1.5" but I got lucky with my load development and they shoot much better.

You always seem to get good groups - and the accuracy you've managed from the lever action rifles really impresses me.

Regards, Guy

 

[cloverleaf]

Big game .75" or less
Varmint .5" or less
Levers 1" or less

These are verified over and over again.
With the levers I can take 1.5" but I got lucky with my load development and they shoot much better.

You always seem to get good groups - and the accuracy you've managed from the lever action rifles really impresses me.

Regards, Guy

You Guys always set a high standard. Fotis for those consistiently sub inch groups with a wide variety of rifles. Good reloading. And Guy for his consistent impressive practice from "field positions" at a variety of distances and targets. Something supremely satisfying about "busting rocks" way out there.

I like to shoot from the bench and with a couple of my rifles, I expect inch groups, and frequently see 2inch groups. if so I usually blame operator error. As I have "aged" I see the value of being able to throw a rifle up or take an impromptu rest and shoot a 2-3 inch group. Whether its 12 ga slugs or a .22 at 50 yards the concept for me is the same. CL

 

[noslerpartition]

Since most of my shots are within 200y and all within 300y,, I stop playing around once I reach moa. Usually I end up below during load development and skip the fine-tuning once I am there.


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[bdbrown66]

Big game .75" or less
Varmint .5" or less
Levers 1" or less

These are verified over and over again.
With the levers I can take 1.5" but I got lucky with my load development and they shoot much better.

Question on your levers. What rifles and calibers are you shooting with consistent 1" or better? That's not a challenge, I'm just curious. In my own experience, pistol-caliber rifles seem to be inherently less consistent at that range, due to the design of the bullets, etc. Now, if you're talking a .308 in a BLR, totally different story, of course.

Cheers,
Brian

 

[FOTIS]

Marlin 30-30

308 Finnwolf

450 Marlin

Win 1873 44-40 open sights

444 Marlin

and some more here under 444 marlin

https://thehandloadinglog.wordpress.com


Also My 45-70 SBL does .95"/100 yards

my 1886 Winchester does 45-90 1.5" at 100 yards with peeps

348 Win 1.25" at 100 with 200 Hornady---also peeps

Last 2 still working on.....