Quickload Request - 7mm Rem Mag and 168 Berger

[Dr. Vette]

I'm working on trying to mimic the HSM ammo with the 168 Berger HBPT Hunting VLD, which shoots well in my Sendero. Primer will be Rem 9 1/2M, COAL will be 3.350 and water capacity of fired shells from my rifle, Winchester brand brass, is 86.2 grains of water.

The spec on the ammo say 3020fps and my chronograph showed 3010 so I assume that's close enough to say they weren't overstating the results. I'm trying to decide which powder to use to match. I do have the Berger load data, but I'd like to get a bit more info before I start loading.

Any QL input appreciated.

Patrick

 

[DrMike]

Cartridge          : 7 mm Rem. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet             : .284, 168, Berger Hunt VLD G7 #28501
Useable Case Capaci: 77.475 grain H2O = 5.030 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.350 inch = 85.09 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H1000

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   83    58.64   2346    2054   30128  10905     90.7    1.658
-18.0   85    60.11   2410    2166   32237  11279     92.2    1.615
-16.0   87    61.57   2473    2282   34502  11638     93.5    1.573
-14.0   89    63.04   2537    2401   36936  11978     94.8    1.531
-12.0   91    64.50   2601    2524   39552  12298     95.9    1.479
-10.0   93    65.97   2666    2651   42369  12596     96.9    1.431
-08.0   95    67.44   2730    2780   45400  12868     97.8    1.384
-06.0   98    68.90   2794    2913   48674  13114     98.5    1.339
-04.0  100    70.37   2859    3049   52206  13330     99.1    1.295  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  102    71.83   2923    3187   56024  13516     99.5    1.253  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  104    73.30   2987    3328   60157  13670     99.8    1.213  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  106    74.77   3050    3471   64638  13789    100.0    1.174  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  108    76.23   3113    3616   69508  13876    100.0    1.136  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  110    77.70   3176    3763   74801  13952    100.0    1.099  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  112    79.16   3238    3912   80574  14023    100.0    1.064  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  114    80.63   3301    4064   86882  14087    100.0    1.030  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    104    73.30   3123    3637   73647  13109    100.0    1.117  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    104    73.30   2788    2900   48488  13553     95.1    1.337

Cartridge          : 7 mm Rem. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet             : .284, 168, Berger Hunt VLD G7 #28501
Useable Case Capaci: 77.475 grain H2O = 5.030 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.350 inch = 85.09 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

48 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570                    103.3     77.8     5.04    3068    97.4    60000   16021   1.230  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-33                 103.8     81.5     5.28    3056    97.7    60000   15844   1.231  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-50                 109.9     84.9     5.50    3052    97.2    60000   16181   1.255  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870                       109.7     80.9     5.24    3048    98.8    60000   15495   1.233  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 217                          109.5     77.0     4.99    3040   100.0    60000   14538   1.245  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo                    107.0     76.9     4.98    3039   100.0    60000   14105   1.221  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2                        102.3     73.1     4.73    3003    99.8    60000   14374   1.244  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560                     94.5     68.9     4.47    3000    99.4    60000   14383   1.231  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO                     94.8     72.0     4.67    2995    98.6    60000   14561   1.239  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP                           92.7     69.1     4.47    2992   100.0    60000   13822   1.240  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                            98.8     68.6     4.44    2992    99.7    60000   13944   1.221  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                        93.5     68.6     4.44    2992    99.7    60000   13944   1.221  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25                 100.1     71.1     4.61    2991   100.0    60000   13314   1.231  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000                      103.7     73.3     4.75    2985    99.8    60000   13665   1.214  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22                  94.8     68.4     4.43    2973   100.0    60000   13727   1.237  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                      97.3     68.7     4.45    2972    99.9    60000   13753   1.238  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41                   106.0     80.7     5.23    2966    92.1    60000   14572   1.219  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                      94.9     73.8     4.78    2956   100.0    60000   13146   1.236  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19                  92.1     65.8     4.26    2936    99.9    60000   13114   1.229  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                       97.3     67.5     4.37    2922    99.2    60000   13107   1.226  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC                    93.5     67.5     4.37    2922    99.2    60000   13107   1.226  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N170                    106.5     75.2     4.87    2915    96.0    60000   13688   1.248  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon US 869                     110.0     83.7     5.42    2911    91.3    56985   14415   1.260  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon 50BMG                      110.0     79.8     5.17    2906    87.2    56735   14535   1.260  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780              91.2     68.7     4.45    2895    99.9    60000   12528   1.237  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165                     97.3     68.7     4.45    2887   100.0    60000   12255   1.242  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160                     97.5     66.8     4.33    2880    99.6    60000   12389   1.231  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350                       90.0     62.9     4.08    2879   100.0    60000   12065   1.230  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100                       95.0     67.8     4.40    2878   100.0    60000   12079   1.269  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                            91.6     62.6     4.06    2876   100.0    60000   11771   1.253  ! Near Maximum !

 

[Dr. Vette]

Thanks Mike. I note that QL uses 77.4 vs the 86.2 grains of water I calculated. Is that due to the space occupied by the bullet?

I've got Retumbo, H-1000, RL22, RL25 and Norma MRP here. I was hoping to save the 22, 25 and MRP for other projects but I'll use what I have to use.

Given that you printed out the H-1000 calculations, would you start there first?

FYI, Sendero barrel length is 26 inches.

Patrick

 

[DrMike]

Thanks Mike. I note that QL uses 77.4 vs the 86.2 grains of water I calculated. Is that due to the space occupied by the bullet?

I've got Retumbo, H-1000, RL22, RL25 and Norma MRP here. I was hoping to save the 22, 25 and MRP for other projects but I'll use what I have to use.

Given that you printed out the H-1000 calculations, would you start there first?

FYI, Sendero barrel length is 26 inches.

Patrick

QL has two case measurement inputs for a given calculation. Maximum Case Overflow is the volume with water forming a convex meniscus, and Useable Case Capacity is self-explanatory, dependent upon projectile chosen and seating depth. QL inputs default estimates if no data is provided by the user. I've had excellent success with H1000 and the 168 Berger bullet in a variety of 7RM rifles. Knowing that HSM uses H1000, and having worked up that load for a surprising number of owners who wanted to match that particular ammunition, my default powder is H1000. It is not that the others will not work (RL22 and RL25 assuredly work quite well in my own rifle), but because I'm seeking to approximate the HSM ammunition, I go to their powder.

Here's the data with a 26 inch barrel. Of course, charges and maximum pressures don't change, though velocities are somewhat higher.

Cartridge          : 7 mm Rem. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet             : .284, 168, Berger Hunt VLD G7 #28501
Useable Case Capaci: 77.565 grain H2O = 5.036 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.350 inch = 85.09 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H1000

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   83    58.64   2406    2159   30075  10090     92.0    1.730
-18.0   85    60.11   2470    2275   32179  10417     93.3    1.685
-16.0   87    61.58   2533    2394   34437  10728     94.6    1.641
-14.0   89    63.04   2598    2517   36864  11021     95.7    1.597
-12.0   91    64.51   2662    2643   39472  11294     96.7    1.544
-10.0   93    65.97   2726    2772   42280  11545     97.6    1.494
-08.0   95    67.44   2790    2905   45301  11772     98.4    1.446
-06.0   97    68.91   2855    3040   48564  11973     99.0    1.400
-04.0  100    70.37   2918    3177   52083  12147     99.5    1.355  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  102    71.84   2982    3317   55888  12292     99.8    1.311  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  104    73.30   3045    3459   60005  12406    100.0    1.270  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  106    74.77   3108    3603   64468  12491    100.0    1.229  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  108    76.24   3170    3749   69317  12562    100.0    1.191  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  110    77.70   3232    3897   74589  12629    100.0    1.153  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  112    79.17   3294    4047   80334  12690    100.0    1.117  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  114    80.63   3355    4198   86610  12745    100.0    1.081  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    104    73.30   3176    3763   73457  11873    100.0    1.171  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    104    73.30   2850    3030   48368  12439     96.0    1.397

Cartridge          : 7 mm Rem. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet             : .284, 168, Berger Hunt VLD G7 #28501
Useable Case Capaci: 77.565 grain H2O = 5.036 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.350 inch = 85.09 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-25

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   80    56.96   2473    2282   30941  10514     98.1    1.720
-18.0   82    58.38   2534    2395   33049  10761     98.8    1.679
-16.0   84    59.81   2594    2510   35304  10984     99.3    1.638
-14.0   86    61.23   2653    2626   37715  11180     99.7    1.592
-12.0   88    62.66   2712    2744   40293  11348     99.9    1.543
-10.0   90    64.08   2771    2864   43053  11487    100.0    1.495
-08.0   92    65.50   2828    2984   46013  11614    100.0    1.450
-06.0   94    66.93   2885    3105   49183  11737    100.0    1.406
-04.0   96    68.35   2941    3228   52582  11858    100.0    1.365  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   98    69.78   2997    3351   56231  11975    100.0    1.324  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  100    71.20   3052    3475   60145  12089    100.0    1.285  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  102    72.62   3107    3601   64308  12199    100.0    1.248  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  104    74.05   3161    3727   68752  12306    100.0    1.212  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  106    75.47   3215    3855   73504  12409    100.0    1.178  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  108    76.90   3269    3985   78589  12507    100.0    1.144  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  110    78.32   3322    4116   84037  12602    100.0    1.112  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    100    71.20   3157    3719   73514  11682    100.0    1.189  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    100    71.20   2891    3117   47708  12639     99.7    1.415

Cartridge          : 7 mm Rem. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet             : .284, 168, Berger Hunt VLD G7 #28501
Useable Case Capaci: 77.565 grain H2O = 5.036 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.350 inch = 85.09 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   76    54.80   2455    2248   31892  10319     94.7    1.718
-18.0   78    56.17   2514    2358   34049  10613     95.7    1.676
-16.0   80    57.54   2574    2471   36319  10892     96.6    1.636
-14.0   82    58.91   2633    2585   38711  11156     97.4    1.587
-12.0   83    60.28   2691    2702   41248  11403     98.1    1.541
-10.0   85    61.65   2750    2821   43940  11632     98.7    1.495
-08.0   87    63.02   2808    2941   46798  11842     99.2    1.451
-06.0   89    64.39   2866    3063   49832  12032     99.6    1.409
-04.0   91    65.76   2923    3187   53053  12201     99.8    1.368  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   93    67.13   2980    3312   56474  12348    100.0    1.330  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   95    68.50   3036    3438   60109  12473    100.0    1.292  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   97    69.87   3091    3565   63972  12587    100.0    1.256  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   99    71.24   3147    3693   68082  12698    100.0    1.221  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  100    72.61   3201    3822   72455  12805    100.0    1.187  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  102    73.98   3255    3953   77114  12909    100.0    1.155  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  104    75.35   3309    4084   82080  13009    100.0    1.124  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     95    68.50   3150    3702   71810  12028    100.0    1.198  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     95    68.50   2865    3062   48555  12622     97.4    1.418

Cartridge          : 7 mm Rem. Mag.(SAAMI)
Bullet             : .284, 168, Berger Hunt VLD G7 #28501
Useable Case Capaci: 77.565 grain H2O = 5.036 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.350 inch = 85.09 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : Norma MRP

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   74    55.12   2460    2258   31030  10552     95.9    1.735
-18.0   76    56.50   2520    2370   33156  10841     96.8    1.693
-16.0   78    57.88   2580    2484   35430  11111     97.7    1.652
-14.0   79    59.25   2640    2600   37858  11363     98.4    1.606
-12.0   81    60.63   2700    2718   40419  11594     99.0    1.557
-10.0   83    62.01   2759    2839   43125  11803     99.4    1.510
-08.0   85    63.39   2817    2960   46000  11990     99.7    1.465
-06.0   87    64.77   2875    3084   49056  12152     99.9    1.421
-04.0   89    66.14   2933    3208   52304  12290    100.0    1.380  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   91    67.52   2989    3334   55758  12413    100.0    1.340  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   92    68.90   3046    3460   59431  12532    100.0    1.301  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   94    70.28   3101    3587   63341  12649    100.0    1.264  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   96    71.66   3156    3716   67503  12762    100.0    1.228  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   98    73.03   3211    3846   71939  12871    100.0    1.194  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  100    74.41   3265    3977   76668  12977    100.0    1.161  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  102    75.79   3319    4109   81715  13079    100.0    1.129  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     92    68.90   3160    3724   71776  12093    100.0    1.203  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     92    68.90   2872    3078   47239  12863     98.3    1.434

Maximum velocities are all so close as to be indistinguishable in the field. Any of these should work well for you. Because you are wanting to conserve your Alliant and Norma powders, I would focus on the H1000.

 

[Dr. Vette]

Thanks Mike, that's exactly the information I needed!
Looks like some H-1000 is going into some cases this week.

Patrick

 

[DrMike]

It should serve you well. If you've enjoyed the HSM ammunition, you should be able to match it pretty easily. Consequently, the HSM ammunition I've worked with included Winchester brass and Federal 215 primers.

 

[Dr. Vette]

Interesting comment on the primers. The boxes I have definitely have gold (brass?) colored primers, which leads me to think the Remington 9 1/2M. CCI, Fed and Winchester are all silver colored.

By chance have you disassembled a 7mm Rem 168 and weighted the charge?

Patrick

 

[DrMike]

Interesting comment on the primers. The boxes I have definitely have gold (brass?) colored primers, which leads me to think the Remington 9 1/2M. CCI, Fed and Winchester are all silver colored.

By chance have you disassembled a 7mm Rem 168 and weighted the charge?

Patrick

Yes, I have disassembled a cartridge and weighed the charge. The charge approximated 70.5 grains. On the primer data, I checked my records from five years past, and those were Remington 9 1/2 M primers. More recent data indicated Federal 215 primers. I used CCI 250 primers at one point, though there was no indication that this primer was used by HSM. It is more likely that I opted for that primer in developing a load because of availability. I'm guessing that HSM is somewhat less concerned about the brisance, depending upon the burn rate of the powder employed. Nevertheless, I've worked up loads for various rifles that used quite a variety of charges, but almost all were with H1000 when uing the 168 Berger bullet.

 

[Dr. Vette]

Thanks again, Mike.