Riddle me this.

[ShadeTree]

I noticed this yrs ago already. How come every powder burn rate chart shows H4350 powder as slower burning and lower on the chart than IMR4350, yet in practice it rarely works out that way.

Most times if it shows a lower charge weight with IMR4350 indicating a faster burning powder, it is because it is in a case and bullet weight where you run out of case room and run into a compressed charge before you get up to the charge weight of H4350. In examples where room allows, it almost always shows slower burning characteristics than H4350.

Example using 25-06, and this example could be extrapolated out in plenty of other cartridges where 4350 falls within a typical burn rate for that cartridge.

100 Gr Nos Part. Hodgdon max charge:
50 grains H4350. Speed is 3,155. Pressure is 51,500 CUP
52.8 grains IMR4350. Speed is 3,257. Pressure is 51,200 CUP. More powder, more speed, less pressure. Faster burning powder??

117 Gr HDY SPBT. Hodgdon max charge:
47.7 grains H4350. Speed is 2923. Pressure is 50,800 CUP.
52 grains IMR4350. Speed is 3,106. Pressure is 51,300 CUP. 4.3 grains more powder. Significantly more speed. Slightly higher pressure. Faster burning powder??

120 Gr SFT SP. Hodgdon max charge:
47.5 grains H4350. Speed is 2816. Pressure is 50,900 CUP.
52 grains IMR4350C. Speed is 3049. Pressure is 50,800 CUP. 4.5 grains more powder. 233FPS faster with less pressure. Faster burning powder??

Me thinks it's possibly one of those things everybody just keeps printing off and repeating. I've never seen powders that are actually faster burning, use higher charge weights at greater speeds, at the same or less pressure than a supposedly slower burning powder. You can find the same thing repeating itself on cartridges like the 7mm-08 when you get into the heavy bullets. 280 Ackley same. Others as well.

 

[truck driver]

Get a Chrony and shoot some of both with same bullet weight and powder charge for each powder and that should tell you what you have. Books are for reference and starting loads.

 

[ShadeTree]

Get a Chrony and shoot some of both with same bullet weight and powder charge for each powder and that should tell you what you have. Books are for reference and starting loads.

Not to be a smart aleck, but isn't that what Hodgdon is doing when they put out their findings of data? Showing both powders using the exact same bullet........using a chronograph, and on top of that using something I will never have. A machine to accurately measure pressure.

When I got Swift A-Frame bullets for my 348, I called Swift and they had data using H4350. I had no data for IMR4350. I used IMR with their start data for H, and a chrono and if I'm remembering correctly, ended up 2 grains above their max charge with them using H4350, and was still safely below their listed max velocity. Again indicating a slower burn rate with IMR 4350.

 

[SJB358]

I’ve almost always used the two interchangeable like. I always just treated them like the same powder from different lots.

it is strange to see so much variance between the two though. I’ve never seen it in real life.

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Way before getting a Magneto I used IMR4350 than few years back started using H4350 both of them in the 30-06. Checked speed with a favorite load using H4350 and the 150gr PT and boy was it slow! Granted it wasn't at the max listed but was very disappointed in speed. Accuracy was great, killed when placed correctly. So, what did I do? Pulled the bullets I had loaded up and will work on developing another load for this bullet. Unnecessary, probably but just caught up in the speed thing. Just for reference Big Game gives more speed with a Hornady 165gr BTSP out of the same 30-06. Lot of variables for sure just my experience on one load with H4350.

 

[salmonchaser]

I found H4350 to be a little slow as well out of an 06, but also found it to be consistent otherwise. I gave up trying to push velocity in an 06, some of the newer powders like Rl 22 and 26 have helped but it’s been around too long, It’ll never be a 300 mag. I never could get 300 velocities out of her. So I bought a 300wm. Never liked that rifle. While I think getting all the 06 is capable of velocity wise is a good idea, the 300 mags were developed not because we needed more killing power, we needed flatter shooting rifles. In the days before laser range finders the 300s made 400 yard shots believable.

 

[truck driver]

Not to be a smart aleck, but isn't that what Hodgdon is doing when they put out their findings of data? Showing both powders using the exact same bullet........using a chronograph, and on top of that using something I will never have. A machine to accurately measure pressure.

When I got Swift A-Frame bullets for my 348, I called Swift and they had data using H4350. I had no data for IMR4350. I used IMR with their start data for H, and a chrono and if I'm remembering correctly, ended up 2 grains above their max charge with them using H4350, and was still safely below their listed max velocity. Again indicating a slower burn rate with IMR 4350.

I never thought you were a smart aleck. I think you misunderstood the post or I didn't go far enough with it.

 

[ShadeTree]

I found H4350 to be a little slow as well out of an 06, but also found it to be consistent otherwise. I gave up trying to push velocity in an 06, some of the newer powders like Rl 22 and 26 have helped but it’s been around too long, It’ll never be a 300 mag. I never could get 300 velocities out of her. So I bought a 300wm. Never liked that rifle. While I think getting all the 06 is capable of velocity wise is a good idea, the 300 mags were developed not because we needed more killing power, we needed flatter shooting rifles. In the days before laser range finders the 300s made 400 yard shots believable.

Yep. It's pretty simple to keep the 06 simple, and it works at that.

51-52 grains of IMR 4064 with a 150 gr bullet will get you 2900 plus in a 22" barrel, and will shoot well.
57 grains of IMR 4350 with a 165 gr bullet will get 2830 or so with a 22" barrel, and will shoot well.
56-56.5 of IMR 4350 with a 180 gr bullet will get the classic 2700 plus with a 22" barrel, and will shoot well.

If you want to really keep it simple a person can use IMR 4350 across the board. 58-59 grains will garner some sizzling velocities with a 150 grain bullet and will shoot absolute bug holes in some rifles, but is more powder than is needed for good results with that bullet weight IMO.

Also a low accuracy node I've found with IMR 4350 is the same 56-56.5 charge weight used with 180's, but used with the 150 gr bullet. Will get you around 2800 in a 22" barrel. Somewhere between 300 savage and 308 power levels on deer.

In theory you could load the same 56.5 charge weight of IMR 4350 with 150 gr bullets, 165 gr bullets, and 180 gr bullets, and with a gun that shoots, shoot MOA or under with all 3 weights. Can't get any simpler than that!

 

[ShadeTree]

I never thought you were a smart aleck. I think you misunderstood the post or I didn't go far enough with it.

Ha. No worries. I tend to be direct with my thought process, so I was just clearing that up before I typed out a response. I might sometimes come off as being somewhat of a jerk, don't know, but it's not typically my intentions unless I'm typing something out about joe biden.

 

[DrMike]

Ha. No worries. I tend to be direct with my thought process, so I was just clearing that up before I typed out a response. I might sometimes come off as being somewhat of a jerk, don't know, but it's not typically my intentions unless I'm typing something out about joe biden.

Easy enough to do.

 

[salmonchaser]

Yep. It's pretty simple to keep the 06 simple, and it works at that.

51-52 grains of IMR 4064 with a 150 gr bullet will get you 2900 plus in a 22" barrel, and will shoot well.
57 grains of IMR 4350 with a 165 gr bullet will get 2830 or so with a 22" barrel, and will shoot well.
56-56.5 of IMR 4350 with a 180 gr bullet will get the classic 2700 plus with a 22" barrel, and will shoot well.

If you want to really keep it simple a person can use IMR 4350 across the board. 58-59 grains will garner some sizzling velocities with a 150 grain bullet and will shoot absolute bug holes in some rifles, but is more powder than is needed for good results with that bullet weight IMO.

Also a low accuracy node I've found with IMR 4350 is the same 56-56.5 charge weight used with 180's, but used with the 150 gr bullet. Will get you around 2800 in a 22" barrel. Somewhere between 300 savage and 308 power levels on deer.

In theory you could load the same 56.5 charge weight of IMR 4350 with 150 gr bullets, 165 gr bullets, and 180 gr bullets, and with a gun that shoots, shoot MOA or under with all 3 weights. Can't get any simpler than that!

I’ve had my 06 since 1968. With 150s 1 1/2 high; 180s come in dead zero. When I occasionally use the 06 for elk I simply add 6 clicks vertical and go hunt with the 180s. I haven’t change the load data for either weight in well over 20 years. It just keeps working.

 

[ShadeTree]

I’ve had my 06 since 1968. With 150s 1 1/2 high; 180s come in dead zero. When I occasionally use the 06 for elk I simply add 6 clicks vertical and go hunt with the 180s. I haven’t change the load data for either weight in well over 20 years. It just keeps working.

Yep! You got it figured out. Don't know what load you're using but whatever it is it likely works in about any 06 and will continue to do so. The 06 is one of those cartridges that works just dandy right where it sits. Admittedly there is some new powders that seem to put a whole other gear in it and would be fun to experiment with if supplies were prevalent and priced cheap, but it's also quite comfortable and effective with powders that have been around for decades.

I have 2 unopened cans of RL26, no idea what I'll ever use it for, have it in my head someday I'll fool with it in the 06 with 180's.

 

[salmonchaser]

Yep! You got it figured out. Don't know what load you're using but whatever it is it likely works in about any 06 and will continue to do so. The 06 is one of those cartridges that works just dandy right where it sits. Admittedly there is some new powders that seem to put a whole other gear in it and would be fun to experiment with if supplies were prevalent and priced cheap, but it's also quite comfortable and effective with powders that have been around for decades.

I have 2 unopened cans of RL26, no idea what I'll ever use it for, have it in my head someday I'll fool with it in the 06 with 180's.

You could send it to me. It’s like fairy dust in my 338 Jarrett!

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Yep! You got it figured out. Don't know what load you're using but whatever it is it likely works in about any 06 and will continue to do so. The 06 is one of those cartridges that works just dandy right where it sits. Admittedly there is some new powders that seem to put a whole other gear in it and would be fun to experiment with if supplies were prevalent and priced cheap, but it's also quite comfortable and effective with powders that have been around for decades.

I have 2 unopened cans of RL26, no idea what I'll ever use it for, have it in my head someday I'll fool with it in the 06 with 180

Don't waste it in a 30-06 there are plenty of others that work. Does well in my 270 Win, hint, hint. Dan.

 

[ShadeTree]

Don't waste it in a 30-06 there are plenty of others that work. Does well in my 270 Win, hint, hint. Dan.

I know you have some 200 grain Remington RN core lokts. I wonder what Salmonchaser has? Don't be offering to throw in any camouflage dragonfly emblem hats, I'm not interested.

 

[salmonchaser]

I know you have some 200 grain Remington RN core lokts. I wonder what Salmonchaser has? Don't be offering to throw in any camouflage dragonfly emblem hats, I'm not interested.

180 gr Accubonds; 150 ballistic tips 180 and 150 Ttsx 180ttsx and TSX

 

[TXbaldhunter]

My experience with H4350 is it tends to change more from lot to lot than I've noticed with IMR4350 or Accurate4350.H4350 always seemed to be about what is equal to one grain short of getting near equal velocity loaded with the same charge as IMR4350 and Accurate4350.The first time I compared all three loaded with the same charge in my 30-06,58grs with a 165gr bullet,Accurate4350 gave me the highest velocity,2917fps,followed by IMR4350 at 2907fps and H4350 came in at 2889fps.Groups were about .5" with Accurate4350 and about .75" with IMR4350 and H4350.I did the same test in my 308 Norma Mag,H4350 was a different lot than the previous test and it gave the highest velocity,followed closely by Accurate4350 and IMR4350 came in the slowest.This was the first time I've had H4350 come in with the highest velocity.I remember years ago comparing H4350 and IMR4350 in my 7mag both loaded the same.H4350 was about 100fps slower than IMR4350.Powders can change from lot to lot,also they could perform different in different cases and bullet weights.That is why you should always check and never assume.A chronograph is your friend.If you don't have one,get one.

 

[Ridge_Runner]

the pressure listed is peak pressure, if the pressure peaks, with the bullet 1/2" into the barrel the pressure will be higher than if the peak occurs 1.5" in. and when peak pressure occurs also is determined by seating depth, chamber size, bullet jump case thickness. the book gives you an idea, all chambers, barrels, dies, and the like are different and give different results.