***UPDATE"""" opinions welcome.....rifle bbl or something else?

300WSM

Handloader
Dec 24, 2011
458
44
Maybe this should go in the rifle section... and maybe I posted something on this before but I'd like some opinions on this

I have a 25wssm that will not shoot a group.

Everything I hand load I can get fine tuned to sub MOA...I mean everything. Not beating my chest on it but just many years of doing it along with being taught by someone with incredible knowledge of the subject

I have one 25WSSM that will shoot great all day long. the other one will not.

What happens is over 3 shots I will get two within an inch but one about 3-6 inches away
there is no sequence to them,,,,like always the last shot is a flier...no no no
it could be the first shot and the next two are ok...
it could be the second shot that is way out there...


now what could be causing this?

I have tried countless weights and mfg of bullets. Different primers..seating depths, ...hot charges....entry charges...all in between. factory ammo... everything under the sun,,,


the one thing I have not tried in all this is changing out the scope.
I had a scope go bad one time...the adhesion on the reticle let loose and you could see the reticle move after different shots but even that didn't impact a group as extreme as what is going on here.

What could be causing this????

I welcome any and all opinions on this subject

THX


P.S. I will attempt a scope change on this to eliminate or confirm that
 
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hunter24605

Handloader
Apr 30, 2016
1,615
1,483
I just went through this with a savage 308 . It absolutely would not group better than 3-4 inches. I went over it from crown to tang and nothing. Torqued all the action, scope base and rings. To no avail. Finally swapped the scope with the one from my 6.5 prc, and suddenly the groups Shrank to about 1.5”, further load development got it under 1”. Only the second scope I’ve ever had go south. Turns out the parallax adjustment knob wasn’t changing the parallax.
 

RL338

Handloader
Mar 23, 2017
922
960
What happens is over 3 shots I will get two within an inch but one about 3-6 inches away
there is no sequence to them,,,,like always the last shot is a flier...no no no
it could be the first shot and the next two are ok...
it could be the second shot that is way out there...
If the scope is returning to zero after second shot is 3-6” away , scope / scope mount is loose. Bad scopes for me have patterned like a shotgun , never coming home to zero in one shot.
 

300WSM

Handloader
Dec 24, 2011
458
44
I'd change the scope and test it, but if it isn't that it could just be a lemon barrel.
how?
Not arguing with you..
I've thought about the barrel but I believe if it was the barrel I wouldn't consistently get 2 shots near each other and 1 flier...extreme flier.n

IMO they would all be considered fliers if the barrel was bad.... like the barrel would be bad every shot

Perhaps maybe not...


The scope was new,,,but that doesn't mean it couldn't be defective

I think I am going to swap scopes with something else tonight and generate 10 loaded rounds to see what happens with that group. I have some Hornady interlocks that need used up
 

Blkram

Handloader
Nov 25, 2013
1,988
539
When I had mine and had issues with inconsistent grouping, I was told that it had to to do with inconsistent crowning by Browning during production on these barrels. Recrowning by the local gunsmith was resolving the issues on most of the rifles in 25 WSSM.
 

Thebear_78

Handloader
Sep 30, 2004
2,953
344
I would go thru everything making sure it’s torqued to spec, and also make sure your not bottoming out your base screws. If they are hitting the barrel threads they might seem tight but won’t be holding down the bases. Then I would look to the action/stock bedding. I have a stainless featherweight 25 WSSM. While it’s not a tack driver it is capable of 1-1.5” three shot groups.
 

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ShadeTree

Handloader
Mar 6, 2017
2,905
1,591
After you've done your checks of the routine basics.......bases, rings, any bedding problems, etc. Do a simple check on your fired cases. Make sure a bullet passes easily through the neck of a fired case. If not, that will wreak havik on both consistent pressures and groups.

You didn't mention these details, but if your 2 together are usually at the same location on the target, it's not likely the scope. Scopes that have lost their ability to hold zero, generally jump around on their impact points, even if showing the ability to keep 2 together.

If you find by chance it is a tight neck, then either you got a carbon ring in the chamber, or the brass you're using is too thick in the neck for your chamber. A bullet pass check on fired cases is a simple and quick way to verify everything is honkey dory in that respect. They should basically fall in and out.
 

Charlie-NY

Handloader
Mar 11, 2005
1,175
194
If it's not optic related, I'd be looking at the bedding and/or barrel clearance. Is the clearance enough to prevent the stock from touching the barrel under recoil?
 

300WSM

Handloader
Dec 24, 2011
458
44
If it's not optic related, I'd be looking at the bedding and/or barrel clearance. Is the clearance enough to prevent the stock from touching the barrel under recoil?
indeed there is clearance between the stock and bbl...

and I don't mean to sound like a smart ass I promise you but that whole bedding thing and clearance thing get a bit blown out of proportion. It is important to achieve the best possible accuracy it most certainly isn't a requirement to achieve acceptable lethal accuracy.
My good ness me I'd bet anyone a wooden nickel there have been more game humanely taken with one shot from rifles that have a bbl sitting smack against a stock on one side or the other than game that has been taken by something free floating.

perhaps with some people that handload and just get'r close with the charges need all the help they can get but I have loaded many o' round for many o' people that had a factory rig that wasn't floating whatsoever...no way you were getting air between the stock and bbl let alone paper.....
...yet when I gave them back their rifle with whatever loads I worked out to be the best for that rifle they were super excited to see a target with 3 shots under 1"

I do agree that if I had a choice between a free floating bbl and non it's advantageous to have a free floating bbl but that's not causing the behavior on this animal.
There is plenty of clearance on this ignorant thing though
 

300WSM

Handloader
Dec 24, 2011
458
44
After you've done your checks of the routine basics.......bases, rings, any bedding problems, etc. Do a simple check on your fired cases. Make sure a bullet passes easily through the neck of a fired case. If not, that will wreak havik on both consistent pressures and groups.

You didn't mention these details, but if your 2 together are usually at the same location on the target, it's not likely the scope. Scopes that have lost their ability to hold zero, generally jump around on their impact points, even if showing the ability to keep 2 together.

If you find by chance it is a tight neck, then either you got a carbon ring in the chamber, or the brass you're using is too thick in the neck for your chamber. A bullet pass check on fired cases is a simple and quick way to verify everything is honkey dory in that respect. They should basically fall in and out.
I can't tell you about the grouping being the same spot as it's been a while since I've messed with this.

this is on the "to-do" list like asap.
been away from all this for a couple of years and this 25 problem child is getting tackled first thing....

From what I can remember I can't say for sure but my gut wants to say the 2 shots near one another are not in the same place. Matter of fact I feel it's more than a guess but if I really think back on this I want to say that sometimes there is a 2 shot group and sometimes two shots aren't within an inch...

I can say that 2 shots of three are always closer together and a third seemingly much farther away...but the pattern of this just seems to lack any kind of real concrete pattern.

I didnt get anything loaded last night but I am going to try and load up 10 rounds and swap scopes and confirm the scope is or isn't the problem.

Easiest simplest thing to test at this point.
 

truck driver

Ammo Smith
Mar 11, 2013
6,963
328
Pack everything up and ship it to me, brass, bullets, dies, powder, primers, scope and rifle. When I get it figured out in a year or two or three, I'll send it back to you and save you the frustration of trying to figure it out.;):D
 

Charlie-NY

Handloader
Mar 11, 2005
1,175
194
indeed there is clearance between the stock and bbl...

and I don't mean to sound like a smart ass I promise you but that whole bedding thing and clearance thing get a bit blown out of proportion. It is important to achieve the best possible accuracy it most certainly isn't a requirement to achieve acceptable lethal accuracy.
My good ness me I'd bet anyone a wooden nickel there have been more game humanely taken with one shot from rifles that have a bbl sitting smack against a stock on one side or the other than game that has been taken by something free floating.

perhaps with some people that handload and just get'r close with the charges need all the help they can get but I have loaded many o' round for many o' people that had a factory rig that wasn't floating whatsoever...no way you were getting air between the stock and bbl let alone paper.....
...yet when I gave them back their rifle with whatever loads I worked out to be the best for that rifle they were super excited to see a target with 3 shots under 1"

I do agree that if I had a choice between a free floating bbl and non it's advantageous to have a free floating bbl but that's not causing the behavior on this animal.
There is plenty of clearance on this ignorant thing though

My point was simple; bedding problems or barrel clearance could be a cause of erratic shot placement.
 

rodell

Handloader
Dec 23, 2013
269
0
I saw a Browning 25wssm wthat was shot out. The throat was a mess. It hadn’t had that many shots through it, either.
 

300WSM

Handloader
Dec 24, 2011
458
44
****uodate****
I finally found time ( I've a business here and work long hours and days are shorter now )
I put the bore sighter on and checked it, then with my palm I'd bump the scope and rifle. Bounce it off the floor on the recoil pad...anything to simulate recoil...then checked it again.
I could swear the cross hair moved but did it really or was it the cheap ass copper spring on the arbor that moved slightly?

Couldn't be conclusive on that so let's mount a dufferent scope to find out once and for all scope or rifle itself.


Hunting season is approaching so I didn't want to try a different scope from a known good platform...
I found a Leupold M8 4x not in use so off with the 2.5x10 Elite 4200 and on with the M8 4x

The 4200 was never used prior so I always sold myself it couldn't have been the scope.

IMG_0718~2.jpg
IMG_0717~2.jpg

I just whipped up a sinple load real quick....
45 gr of IMR 4350
120 gr hornady interlock

With the scarcity of nosler bullets i wasn't going to use them...

The above two were shot at dusk
I was just looking for a group or rather looking for one of three shots not to be 6 inches away.

The original scope brand new out of the box was in fact walking around.

While the above groups aren't good enough to me it's something I can work with to tighten up and I'm delighted about that.
Glad it wasn't the rifle but now I need a scope which I'll gladly get.
 
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truck driver

Ammo Smith
Mar 11, 2013
6,963
328
Contact Bushnell and get a repair order and ship it back for the lifetime warranty.
They will likely send you a new scope since I have yet to get the same one back.
 

cloverleaf

Handloader
Sep 10, 2006
3,978
368
I would go thru everything making sure it’s torqued to spec, and also make sure your not bottoming out your base screws. If they are hitting the barrel threads they might seem tight but won’t be holding down the bases. Then I would look to the action/stock bedding. I have a stainless featherweight 25 WSSM. While it’s not a tack driver it is capable of 1-1.5” three shot groups.
And its Purtty- Makes me wish would have left my 250 "in the white". Like them stainless feather weights. CL
 
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