Variation on Fireforming...

[preacher]

I'm still getting the bugs worked out of this 1952 Mod 70 .257 Roberts AI. I got it back from the smith who cleaned it well, touched up the bedding, adjusted the trigger, reshaped the grip cap and added a new pad ( old one was rotted away). It had been turned back a thread before Improving by previous owner(s) but is still pretty long. I suspected as much before I took it to get checked out as I couldn't "feel" any crush fit chambering a factory 257 Roberts round. So...
It has a very long throat ( fine with me) but I can't even get the Sierra 117 flat base to "jam" into the lands for fireforming. I "can" get a great "jam fit" with that bullet "if" I seat it "backwards and then crimp it. I've never done it that way, especially with a factory round ( I just pulled the bullets on these, kept factory load/primer in place so far) Not sure if I will try it, but if I do I will reduce the powder charge a bit beforehand. I can also put a false shoulder on the case by running it over a 6.5 tapered expander button, then necking it down with the 257 button back in place until I get a good "crush" fit, and fire the Sierra 117 out "point first" as long as I "can" seat it out and try those. I can also seat out the Sierras and then smear a light coating of Imperieal sizing wax on the neck/shoulder and fire (with no other changes)...that area will pop out, hopefully enough not to thin the web above my case head. I have spoken with people who have all done these methods, and done many of them myself before, including the COW/pistol powder no bullet method. I'm not messing with that one yet, maybe later. If I did I would "definitely" use the false shoulder method. I went to install my scope bases and "the previous owner/bubba" had stripped the screw holes in the rear, have to take it "back" to the smith now for fixing ( 8x40 drill/tap) (I "must resist" pulling my hair out!) :twisted: If it doesn't shoot like I want, after all that and if the bore is still in good shape, I can have it rechambered to 25-06 AI which will clean up the existing chamber. It can be done w/o setting the barrel back again and still be set up for a crush fit w/factory ammo. If the bore isn't worth a rechamber, then a SS Shilen will go on this puppy...but I'm really hoping I can get it wrung out with its existing chambering. For deer, etc, for now, I don't want anything else, just the 257 Roberts AI. I got other rifles for elk, and God only knows when I can hunt them again ha. Oh well.
So....has "anyone" ever fireformed cases with a bullet "base first" jammed out into the lands? If so, how do it work? Thanks.

 

[truck driver]

Sounds like you got yourself a head ache. I would have the Smith set it back so you can use factory ammo with out having to worry about it since you have to have him clean up the screw holes and threads .JMO

 

[TC260]

I've never shot bullets backwards, never had a need to. Honestly, with various wildcats I've gotten better results in getting cases to fill out the chamber using false shoulders than jamming bullets. So I personally wouldn't fool with backwards bullets.

As for the false shoulder I'd at least go to 270 for the neck up to make the false shoulder and then anneal after fire forming. 0.007" may not be enough to hold the case firm against the firing pin strike..

 

[Dwh7271]

I would have the Smith set it back so you can use factory ammo with out having to worry about it

This.

As for the false shoulder I'd at least go to 270 for the neck up to make the false shoulder and then anneal after fire forming. 0.007" may not be enough to hold the case firm against the firing pin strike..

Or this.

 

[preacher]

The barrel was already turned back once, it doesn't look like it has enough shank to turn back another time. I will give the other methods a try first before I determine if it is too much hassle. thanks guys.

 

[preacher]

Dropped it off at the smith's, asked him fix the screw holes, etc. I also asked him to bore scope it and just see what shape the throat and bore is in. It "may be" that the throat is so long because it has been eroded by a lot of shooting. If so, then the bore could be in rough shape too. The bore "looks good" by eyeballing it, but I can't tell what shape the throat is in. I would rather have it rechambered to the 25-06AI rather than go through the extra steps needed to fire form only to find out the throat is eroded bad enough to effect accuracy. Admittedly, its an unknown until he runs that borescope in it, then we'll know what needs to be done. If it needs a new barrel, who knows what I'll pick...anything from another 257 Roberts AI to 25-06AI to another 270 or even a 6.5/280 AI...but no magnums in this one.

 

[preacher]

Well.....phooey on doooey! :evil: Smith ran the bore scope into my little friend...she's fried! Throat is badly eroded ( about .5 of "free bore") and bore is cooked into alligator hide...too bad. At least I'm glad I didn't waste any time trying to fire form any 257 Roberts ammo. I bought 4 boxes of Nosler 110 AccuBond +P 257 Roberts factory ammo ( I had pulled the bullets on a few so don't have 80 "pristine" rounds, but rounds nonetheless) I'll place them over on the Classifieds later.
So, after thinking about it, looking at my options/time/money ( it doesn't take long for a pastor to do those...seemed like it only took seconds! lol) I am having a Shilen SS Match 6.5 9" twist #3 Contour put on and my smith will ream it into a 6.5/06. I thought long and hard about the 6.5/280 Ackley, but I have a gob of brand new Nosler 270 brass on hand. I like just necking down and go! I really, really loved the way my old short action Model 700 killed in 6.5/284. Back then I just necked down 284 Winchester brass in one pass in a Redding 6.5/284 FL die and got after it! I only used the 120/125 Noslers and in its 24" barrel I was 'almost" at 3200fps. Later on, when the new Hornady and Norma 6.5/284 brass came out they were softer than the Winchester, I couldn't get quite that fast.
So, it seemed good to me and the Holy Ghost (and my smith) to go with 270 brass necked down to 6.5/06. I always wanted one anyhow...this is as good a time as any to do it, ha. I'm going to start with 100's probably ( Sierra Varminter and Barnes 100 TTSX) and later the 120-130s of different makes, see what it likes. Just a bummer this old nice pre64 was fried...hey, as a Pastor, I feel pretty "fried" myself, ha.

 

[Dwh7271]

That sounds like the ticket. Bet that thing will shoot the 120 BTs all day, along with the 130 AB if you want something bonded.
The 6.5-06 is one of my favorites, guess it better be as I have two. :lol:
Once you get it up and running let me know and I'll tell you what shoots in mine. H4831, Hunter, RL22, RL26 are all good in mine. I imagine H4350 would be good with the lighter bullets also. They're generally not that hard to find a load for IMO.

 

[preacher]

Thanks DW, as I mentioned, that 6.5/284 killed a ton of antelope,coyote here in Utah and exotics in Texas, I mean death ray kind of killing, ha. It never fed right though, so traded it to a friend who didn't care if it didn't. I had given a lot of thought to a 6.5/280 Ackley but it was just "too much sugar for a dime" with the dies, set up, etc. I am satisfied I made the right choice! I live right down the road from Barnes and have shot their bullets since 1990 ( when I got out here from Bible School) I like the TTSX better than all the previous versions, though the XBT treated me OK and the XLC also in some rifles. I'm thinking a 100gr TTSX around 3400+ is doable in a 24-25" barrel ( "maybe" 26) . My first 257 Roy was a 24" rechambered/converted Mod 700 25-06, and only shot Federal Premiums with the Nosler 115PT going 3200...it was also a death ray. Later in life I had another 257 Roy made up, also 24" barrel and shot the then new 100 TSX easily right at 3500...it was a greased lightning bolt! ha. So I'm feeling good about it all...what were your bullets/recipes for R22 and R26 ( I have both) ?

 

[Dwh7271]

I ran 55.5 RL26 with the 130 AB in a 26" barrel around 3080 with room to go but the accuracy was there.
59 gr RL22 with the 120 BT was right at 3225 from the same rifle.
Sorry didn't play with any Barnes bullets in it. :grin:

 

[AFG270]

Sorry to hear about your 257 barrel, Rev Jim, but that 6.5-06 should be a great rifle. Looking forward to pictures, when you get it finished.

 

[SJB358]

Well.....phooey on doooey! :evil: Smith ran the bore scope into my little friend...she's fried! Throat is badly eroded ( about .5 of "free bore") and bore is cooked into alligator hide...too bad. At least I'm glad I didn't waste any time trying to fire form any 257 Roberts ammo. I bought 4 boxes of Nosler 110 AccuBond +P 257 Roberts factory ammo ( I had pulled the bullets on a few so don't have 80 "pristine" rounds, but rounds nonetheless) I'll place them over on the Classifieds later.
So, after thinking about it, looking at my options/time/money ( it doesn't take long for a pastor to do those...seemed like it only took seconds! lol) I am having a Shilen SS Match 6.5 9" twist #3 Contour put on and my smith will ream it into a 6.5/06. I thought long and hard about the 6.5/280 Ackley, but I have a gob of brand new Nosler 270 brass on hand. I like just necking down and go! I really, really loved the way my old short action Model 700 killed in 6.5/284. Back then I just necked down 284 Winchester brass in one pass in a Redding 6.5/284 FL die and got after it! I only used the 120/125 Noslers and in its 24" barrel I was 'almost" at 3200fps. Later on, when the new Hornady and Norma 6.5/284 brass came out they were softer than the Winchester, I couldn't get quite that fast.
So, it seemed good to me and the Holy Ghost (and my smith) to go with 270 brass necked down to 6.5/06. I always wanted one anyhow...this is as good a time as any to do it, ha. I'm going to start with 100's probably ( Sierra Varminter and Barnes 100 TTSX) and later the 120-130s of different makes, see what it likes. Just a bummer this old nice pre64 was fried...hey, as a Pastor, I feel pretty "fried" myself, ha.

Jim, I think you are going to love that 6.5-06!! Especially on the P64.

One thing that may be worth looking at is the 8 twist to shoot the 127 Barnes LRX's... Those might be a hot ticket for you in that as well.

Can't wait to see it finished up.

 

[preacher]

I just don't shoot long enough ranges to worry about a 8" twist Uncle Scotty...I'm thinking the 130 Scirocco and 129 NAB would handle anything I did. I wanted to ask you, on a pre 64 Model 70, would the McMillan FWT stock work? I like a longer, more open wrist and that one seems to be the longest? I like the shape/feel of the FWT wood stock, just wondering if the FWT Mac would be lighter? What do most pre64 70 guys use for a lwt synthetic, not too light, but lighter than the factory wood?

 

[SJB358]

McMillan Featherweight is a great one. It'll be lighter with an open grip. I like them myself.

With an Edge shell it'll lighten it up a bunch. Matter of fact, that would be a heckuva mountain rifle right there.

I think some folks are using the Compact Edge as well.

As for twist, I've NEVER seen extra hurt ANYTHING and it's free when you're rebarreling anyhow. It can only do good things with hunting bullets and I know you don't plan on shooting far but a good 8 twist doesn't hurt to put them longer bullets to sleep faster and aid in expansion.

 

[preacher]

Well sir...I had to do some "thinking about it"...do a bit more research...and I believe you are right about the 8" twist! So, I called my smith and he is changing my order...I appreciate the input Marine! ( Didn't I tell you that back in 1971 when the Marines found out what a great shot I was they asked the Army to transfer me to them? The Army flat out refused, of course..."political bunch, they are" (said in Yoda's voice" ) :twisted: :roll: lol Actually, my dad flat out 'told me" that I was NOT joining the Marines ( he still had fresh memories of the Pacific Campaign, he was Army, they came in immediately right behind the Marines, saw far too many dead youngsters, and felt they used Marines too much as cannon fodder...) Anyhow, back to the 6.5...I wanted a hunters perspective as opposed to a Competition Shooter's, as I believe a fast twist actually helps in killing effect on game. I remember the first prairie dog I shot with that fast twist 22-250AI, it was right at 250yds. When that Hornady 68gr Match Open Tip hit him he went "five feet high in the air and spinning to the right"! ha. Both me and my outfitter hollered at the same time "Did you see that!!! ??? ha Now, I don't expect that kind of results on mule deer/antelope...