Winchester Model 70 to free float or not, that it’s the Ques

[mjcmichigan]

I know I’m treading into opinion territory... but I’m looking for it.

Two model 70’s.
#1 - Model 70 EWS in 300 WM - Bell & Carlson stock, free floated barrel, its a happy gun. I put cartridges in, and they shoot nice little groups...

2# Model 70 Sporter in 300WSM - synthetic Winchester stock, not free floating. I had it apart today, tunes the trigger to about 3.5#, reassembled and torqued bedding screws to 60#s(per inch).( model 70’s manual recommendation). Typically does one of two thing... strings of shots... some bullets go up and down, and others travel left to right..or less often, when I get a load just so.. two shots nearly touching and one a inch -1.5” off the other two...
Certainly acceptable for hunting under 100 yards, but nothing I’d take to Wyoming or other long shot states.

What’s the consensus? Model 70 meant to free float or does it need that upward pressure on the barrel.

I didn’t mention, both rifles are the modern CRF with the full length claw extractor.(pre 64 take 2)

#2 - I didn’t mention, has a Zeiss conquest on it. #1 has a Steiner GS3. I like the Steiner more, but both are great.

#2 seems to be throat challenged. I find the lands are often less than the load books say, ie 2.830, and I hit lands at 2.792. So if the throat is an issue, I could have a gun smith make it happy.

Maybe this an intervention to make a model 70 a happy gun..

Thoughts?


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[Ridgerunner665]

When I restocked the one I had, a 30-06, I free floated it, and it was a .5 MOA rifle with several loads.

In the factory stock, it shot most loads at around 1 MOA, and changing the torque on the screws holding the action in the stock shifted the POI.

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[DrMike]

All of my Model 70s have been free floated. Each has delivered fine accuracy when loaded with the appropriate load. I do have a few Model 70s, and many more have graced my armory over the years.

 

[mjcmichigan]

I free floated the barrel this morning. I can slip a business card down both sides and the end the the forearm.

I have a break in the day and lunch so I’ll head to the range with Nosler BT 150’s over H4831SC(three different loads 2900, 3000, and 3100fps), Hornady SST 165’s over 65.6gn of IMR 4350, and Sierra Game Kings #2140 HPBT over 65.6gn IMR4350.

That should be 5 groups. 15 rounds.

If I have anything to be pleased with, I will provide pictures.


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[Nimrod84]

#2's synthetic stock might just be too flimsy.

I've seen flimsy Tupperware stocks and I've seen heavy duty plastic stocks and I've seen rigid fiberglass stocks.

Would suggest free floating the barrel as you already did. If it doesn't work then I would look at getting a stiffer stock. Like the B&C on rifle #1...

 

[PJGunner]

#2's synthetic stock might just be too flimsy.

I've seen flimsy Tupperware stocks and I've seen heavy duty plastic stocks and I've seen rigid fiberglass stocks.

Would suggest free floating the barrel as you already did. If it doesn't work then I would look at getting a stiffer stock. Like the B&C on rifle #1...

I have used expanding insulation foam and pieces of aluminum tubing used to make hunting arrows to stiffen up flimsy stocks. It does pay to use a dab of that foam in a place inside the stock to see if it affects the integrity of the stock material. I did two Butler Creek stocks made for Mausr that way, the first using glass bedding for the fill and the foam for the second stock. Both worked out just fine but the glass bedding fill made the stock noticeably heavier.
Paul B.

 

[Nimrod84]

PJGunner is spot-on and old aluminum or carbon arrows are great for adding rigidity. Carbon arrows can be a pain to cut without damaging the fibers and the dust is hazardous; but it shouldn't matter in this application.

Also, if you can add aluminum pillars that can help as well.

 

[mjcmichigan]

You might be right about the stock.

I didn’t do anything to impress anyone.

Here’s my five groups.

Top three are NBT 150’s over three loads of 4381sc 67, 70.4, 72.9
Bottom left is HSST 165 4 shots the very first was the rightmost hole(clean cold bore), 2nd shot left most hole, 3rd touched the first, 4th just below. So if I could explain the second shot away, the group would be huntable, but I can’t explain it.

Bottom left was the SGK 165’s.

Tonight, I’ll take copper solvent to the barrel.

I bought a # of H414 at the Hw store (yikes, $37/#). I have 180 AB’s

I have the Hornady Interlocks and RL19

And I have Sierra ProHunter’s, maybe a SGK SPBT too. RL17

I’ll work up three 180 loads tonight.

If this is a no go, I’ll put the gun in the safe until after season.
I’ve ruled out nothing so far.

I did notice vertical distribution was sub MOA, but horizontal was 3 plus. Different powders, different bullets.

Could the Zeiss scope have a problem? Could the stock be a problem? Could the barrel/ chamber be the problem.

I will get this gun shooting.

I should knock out some 300 WM’s with 180 AB. My m70 was SubMOA.

Just trying to get my son hunting with his rifle vs his dads. The trusty old savage 3006 is ready and MOA with Factory Federals with Sierra Game Kings...

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[Nimrod84]

That is interesting. Do you have your "parallax" set correctly?

Yes, I know a lot of the Conquests don't have parallax adjustments, but I think the 4.5-14 versions do have a side adjustment knob. When parallax is off for me I usually have horizontal dispersion rather than vertical dispersion. My father wears glasses and he usually shoots a few inches to the left of where I hit - we figure it is due to his prescription and or head angle due to the glasses.

Are you shooting off of bi-pod, bags or something else?

If bi-pod or slung up with tight sling than I really think weak stock.

Might be the throat / barrel , but I sure wouldn't think so based on my experience. I have a very short throated 280 Rem, way under magazine length and max COAL, that shoots lights out with factory Rem 150 grain Core-Locts and Federal 140 grain Trophy Coppers. Hand loads of standard cup and core bullets do very well in it as well. Problems arise with longer bullets like the Swift Scirocco as I can't approach book max loads due to the reduced case capacity.

Rifle is a Howa 1500 Action with a heavy but not bull 24" Douglas barrel and very heavy laminated wood stock and I think with a 3-9 Conquest scope and bi-pod it must weigh close to 11-12 lbs.

 

[mjcmichigan]

The conquest is a 4-10x, so parallex is preadjusted for 100 yards.

Shooting off a lead sled.

I appreciate all the thought you put into your reply.

Thanks for the comment on the short throat. I don’t recall having a gun before where I could not load the manufacturer’s length. It was reassuring someone else who has a gun like that and they get loads shooting great.

Well, If I’m going to be ready to hit the range tomorrow I better get to work.

Maybe I’ll reshoot the SST’s and use my scope tapping trick. If I can tighten a group by tapping the scope between every shot, then it says one or more of the springs are getting weak and it needs work. The gentle taps help it find home.


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[Ridgerunner665]

My money is on it being the stock...I bet the action is moving in the stock.

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[elkeater2]

Are the scope bases and rings appropriate and torqued up properly? I've had movement that was barely detectable there before. I didn't see that possibility mentioned yet. EE2

 

[mjcmichigan]

I think I’m good on the mount job on the scope. I have a torque driver and they all seem appropriately torqued.

Nimrod brought up the Tupperware stock point, and that combined with the lead sled.

I lost my old 2 piece rest system in the flood, and one thing that is very different is the point of support. It’s out on the fore arm which is flimsy.

I’m heading out at lunch Wednesday to take another swing at it.

I loaded up some 180’s Sierra ProHunter RN(RL17), Hornady SP interlocks(RL19), and Nosler Accubonds(H414)

All the cup.& cores are 0.02” off the lands and the AB has a jump of 0.128”

I do have sand bags which I can place under the action for reducing risk of the barrel touching.

I did find a lot of copper in the barrel. Using Hoppe’s Bench rest copper remover. Basically wet/dry patches in till clean... well... I went through a mind boggling number of patches. ran bore scrubber and a brush, which somehow found more powder residue and went back to the copper solvent after a few more dry patches. I do have a tight jag.

When you get it clean, they advise one move wet patch and let soak over night.

The resume wet/dry until clean.

I still have a handful of the 165’s I was hoping he could hunt, so I will throw a group down range at lunch with support under the action back fore arm and see if the cleaner barrel and leadsled/Tupperware stock were breaking up the groups.

Thank you again for helping me by talking me through the possibilities.

So three new loads tomorrow all 180’s
And I’ll throw a group of 165 SST and SGK down range.
Here’s tonight’s loads.

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[elkeater2]

I personally don't use a lead sled or a support that has a semi-rigid cup at the rear at all anymore. I could shoot bug holes with my .223, but anything that recoiled significantly wasn't consistent for groups. The real issue was shooting to the same point of aim as the sled when I then shot from bags only or the shoulder. Maybe just me. These days I shoot (from standing)across the bed cover on my truck, using a Bull's Bag in front and sandbags under the buttstock. Rifle fit into my shoulder just as in field shooting. Recoil is absorbed better. EE2

 

[mjcmichigan]

Not just you... pretty sure many would agree. The best groups are the ones you can shoot unassisted.


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[elkeater2]

Not just you... pretty sure many would agree. The best groups are the ones you can shoot unassisted.


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I'm certain from your posts you know what to do. Very interested in the outcome, and I'll try to avoid chiming in with my ramblings now! EE2

 

[Nimrod84]

Let us know how you do and if the bags or deep cleaning made a difference.

I'm not familiar with the 4-10 Zeiss Conquests, but your post sounds like it is not adjustable for parallax. I would still play with the scope a little and re-focus the eyepiece. I've found that sometimes when I'm having a bad day shooting, adjusting the eyepiece can make a noticeable but not earth shattering difference.

Current bet would be on the lead-sled and a flimsy stock as you are already thinking. I've seen the forend overly flex / compress with the strap and I've also seen noticeable action movement as the stock is rigidly held and something has to flex / give - Prussian Blue / marking dye can be your friend here. A friend ended up selling his lead-sled due to his frustrations with it and a T/C Compass.

I love my 280's but everyone of them has had chamber issues. Have a Weatherby MK V which was short chambered, wouldn't pass a go-gauge but would shoot most factory ammo into 1.25-1.5" at 100 yards. Fixing the chamber didn't increase its accuracy. The 280 with a very short throat, most bullets make contact around 3.2" with COAL being 3.33".

The only ways I see your short throat being an issue is:
1. A burr on or just before the lands which makes contact on one side of the bullet. This gives a false positive on when the bullets are in the lands and can cause alignment issues for the bullets.
2. Chamber / throat is not square or in alignment. This would cause the bullets to make contact earlier than desired on a side and again cause alignment issues.

Both issues are pretty rare but are easy to check for with smoked or sharpied bullets that are seated hard into the lands. One should easily see if the lands engage consistently around the bullet or just on one side. I had an M1 Garand with a burr, that was cleaned up by a smith in a few minutes - I did the test above and he confirmed the diagnosis.

 

[mjcmichigan]

So at this point, things went better today. Shot 11 3 shot groups. My best groups were with the 180’s.

Going to set the gun aside until after rifle season ends.

I ran a lot of patches through, over an hour of running patches and let it sit over night and did a couple more sessions in the morning. So don’t believe I have all the copper fouling resolved.

The rest under the action helped.

NAB 180 was best.

64 gn H414 o. The last one, measures 0.72”.

SPro Hunters looked like my other days.

The middle one double tapped the hole on the right.

Hornady Interlock SP with RL19
One load was close. Middle load of 65.5gn RL19

You can see I still have the problem of multiple MOA horizontally, but vertically less than 1”.

One observation. The jump is greatest on the AB. The Interlocks OAL is shorted to as i aligned on the crimp groove since it was very close.

SST 165

SGK HPBT not bad.

So next four activities.
1) resume copper cleaning until no blue.

2) order a better stock.

3) remove scope and verify mounts are solid and screws not too long.

4) find my bore scope and inspect the lands and crown.

Suggestion on the burr is an interesting one.

I actually think most of these loads can perform great. SST’s, SGK HPBT, NAB, and Hornady Interlock.

The ProHunter’s I haven’t gotten them working well. I know they are cup and core, but maybe they are hard enough they want jump.


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[mjcmichigan]

I guess another good step is get a spare scope and be prepared to swap out the Zeiss Incase it needs to go in for service.


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[Nimrod84]

I would be pretty happy with the 180 AB loads, especially if they repeat. And honestly for a lot of the hunting I do, I would hunt with a number of those loads.

A more rigid stock would help in the lead-sled as the additional support helped the groupings, but it might not make a huge difference in the woods with you absorbing the recoil. Additionally, repositioning the lead sled to sight different dots can cause different harmonics. My friend would shoot several groups per dot to minimize any additional stresses on the rifle / load being tested.

Posts through #5 might be worth looking at considering before spending money: https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/thread ... .190802/...