Traditional?

Leatherbelly

Beginner
Apr 26, 2006
7
0
What ever happened to Traditional muzzle loading?When I hear of all those pill popping,scope mounted,bolt action muzzle loaders out there I cringe!And,all these muzzle loading big game records falling to the Jim Shockey types really angers me! I challenge you bolt action inline shooters to try hunting and shooting with a Traditional patched roundball in a flintlock rifle(or caplock),with primitive iron sights.This is the real challenge in the sport.Please don't take this personal,it's just my humble opinion.
BTW, I shoot a 1720's French tradegun,smoothbore in .62 cal.With a 325gr. round ball(.60),this gun will flatten a big bull moose at ranges under 100 yards.So call them in close and hit them big!
 
Different strokes for different folks.

I own both "modern" and "traditional" muzzleloaders, but save the traditional one strictly for punching paper. When it comes to hunting though I choose the increased terminal performance and reliability of the inline over the flintlock.
 
I enjoy the history and challenge of hunting with a traditional muzzle loader. They are indeed accurate and effective, within their range. I've never needed more than one shot for a mulie w/my traditional cap lock rifle. A fellow just has to work within range - which I enjoy. That's why I took up the muzzle loader.

I do think we've lost something that made hunting with a muzzle loader special.

Regards, Guy
 
MRFurious said it best, "Different strokes for different folks"

I hate when someone knocks anothers form of hunting!

No disrespect intended but the same can be said by traditional archers against Compound bows and compound bow archers can say the same about crossbows archers.

I am so sick of hearing, my way of hunting is better than yours or more authentic or more ethical or not traditional enough.

Gawddddddddd

Camper
 
I hear you Camper. And to a point I agree. Forty years of hunting though has left me with some strong beliefs.

Hesitated to bring up bowhunting - I don't do a lot of it anymore. I feel much the same about bowhunting as I do about muzzle loading. I choose to hunt with a recurve too... And have passed up shots that could be made with a modern compound.

I do believe there are lines that as sportsmen we shouldn't cross - and I believe that as a group we've crossed some of those lines in the interest of our own convenience. The archery and muzzle loader seasons were developed to provide a "primitive" hunting experience... Not just another season for the well-equipped hunter.

Where are those lines drawn? A good subject for discussion, and one that we can engage in, with civility. Too much modern technology makes a mockery of the hunt. When it comes to modern rifles - I don't know where to draw the line, or if one needs to be drawn. Some folks seriously think that hunting with a scoped rifle is unethical. I've run into that in the past. I'm obviously not in that camp, believing strongly in powerful cartridges, good scopes, accurate rifles and premium bullets.

With muzzle loaders, in my opinion, we've already crossed the line.

Horse and foot have been replaced by 4x4's, ATV's, snowmobiles, aircraft etc... Is that all bad? No. Should there be limits on their use? Probably.

For instance - would it be ethical for a well-heeled hunter to shoot trophy mule deer, elk or bighorn sheep from a well-piloted helicopter? It can certainly be done, but is it right? Is it right to use that helo to insert into a remote wilderness area instead of making the effort to get in by foot or horseback?

Was it right for me to use 4-wheel low-range and the oversized tires on my truck last year to drive through the sagebrush and up the hill to collect my mulie buck rather than pulling him out to the road myself?

How about the year before when I accepted the offer of a friend with a winch-equipped ATV to help me retrieve my deer from a deep canyon?

Yet... Would it have been right to actually hunt from the ATV or truck? I hunted on foot, and retrieved the game with help from vehicles. Sometimes the lines are blurry.

Just things to chew on - I place a high importance on hunting ethics, and I think some lines are well past being blurred, they've been crossed.

Still, I'm open to reasonable debate, and have happily hunted with my friends and their in-line muzzle loaders while carrying my traditional cap lock rifle. Funny thing, on our hunts, I'm usually one of the guys who bags a mulie, even with my obsolete rifle. Maybe I pay more attention to the hunt than to the latest regulation-beating setup?

Sometimes those who scream loudest defending their hunting style may be feeling a tad guilty about it? Just wondering...

Regards, Guy
 
Well Guy Miner and Leather Belly, I must apologize for the way I wrote my post, your explanation and points have come across respectful, knowlegable, wise and thought provoking where mine was disrespectful, crude, impersonable and blaming.

I see that there is a blurry line and having hunted for only 7 years I come from the new age technology faster easier and more efficient kind of thinking and I don't take enough time to enjoy the more traditional aspect of hunting.

I do feel that Traditional is only one aspect of hunting though.

Maybe with some more experience, knowledge and a few more slices of humble pie, I will have a different view on this tradition that I love so much.

I will say that i use use a recurve and a crossbow for bow season and I see the extra satisfaction that I get with the recurve v/s the crossbow.

I do think that the new inlines have a place in the M/L season as they get more hunters out enjoying the wilderness and I also feel that because life is so busy people may not have as much time to master more traditional instruments and therefore newer technology has its place in aiding clean kills.
(I am not saying one should not practice and then go out and shoot at animals)


Thank you for the slice of humble pie and I look forward to more mutually respectful discussions on this board

Camper
 
I forgot to add that I have no guilt with the choice of instruments I use to hunt with or how I hunt.
I do feel guilty that I can't afford and don't have time to use them all
both traditional and new!!!!!!!!

Camper
 
Good discussion. I doubt it will stay this civil though - in most any discussion of ethics somebody takes it personal, jumps in and rants. Human nature I suppose.

Thanks for the toughtful contribution Camper - you make some excellent points, particularly about not wanting to provide fuel for the anti-hunting crowd.

BTW - I know the cat's out of the bag, and the hands of time can't be turned back to the way it was before inline muzzle loaders and compound bows. Sometimes though I wonder what will be next... Laser guided arrows?

Somebody needs to jump on that one - I'm sure military technology could be adapted and a fortune could be made! I can see it now, "Fire and Forget Archery Systems, Inc."
:shock:

Regards, Guy
 
Guy Miner":3a0ep3pa said:
I hear you Camper. And to a point I agree. Forty years of hunting though has left me with some strong beliefs.

The archery and muzzle loader seasons were developed to provide a "primitive" hunting experience... Not just another season for the well-equipped hunter.

Regards, Guy

Guy,

Archery season has been around since long before the advent of modern compound bows or crossbows, so saying these seasons were specifically developed for primitive hunting is totally false. The developments in bows was a direct result of hunters wanting increased performance, ease of use and accuracy.

As for muzzleloading, your comment is only half right. Look how many states have only recently (last 10 years) added a muzzleloading season for hunters. This is a direct result of the increased interest in muzzleloading brought forth by modern inline muzzleloaders, again for their ease of use, increased performance and accuracy.

Simply put, without these modern innovations you call "over the line", we would have far far fewer sportsmen going afield during these seasons. Just think of how much management money the state DNR's would lose out on from ammunition, equipment and license sales. Additionally, the revenue generated in communities from the sale of gas, hotel rooms, meals, etc. by hunters enjoying the season would put a huge hurt on some regions which rely on tourism during the hunting season to keep them afloat. Simply put, it's trickle down economics and you have to look at the whole picture before passing judgement.

As camp clearly pointed out, the younger generation (myself included to a limited degree as I fall in the middle) has been force fed modern ideas and tactics by the marketing moguls to the point that the idea of hunting with traditional methods is simply pointless. By the same token the older generation of hunters grew up with and were taught traditional hunting methods and see all these new-fangled contraptions doing nothing but degrading the time-honored tradition of their beloved sport. What they don't see is that this modernization has spurred a huge growth in the sport, bringing in new hunters who previously never would have taken it up due to the time and skill required using the old ways.

What both sides don't realize is that each needs the other, and they need to accept each other for what they are if the sport is continue to exist and grow in the future.

As I pointed out in my previous post, I prefer to use modern equipment when hunting. I made this choice out of respect for the animal I am pursuing, not because it was easier or offered me a distinct advantage. It is our responsibility as hunters to harvest (yes harvest, not kill....stop feeding the anti's ammunition by using poor terminology) my query in the fastest, safest, most humane and effective manner possible. Respect for the animal is one of the oldest hunting tradisions out there, so from my viewpoint I am hunting with traditional methods.

Do I condem those who hunt with primitive equipment? Surely not as I respect their dedication to the heritage of our great sport, but at the same time they have no right to begrudge those of us who use modern equipment as we are the ones who will ensure the sport continues into the future after they are gone.

As for the rest of your post, I agree completely that some modern advances shouldn't (and in most cases aren't) permitted. It is illegal in most states to hunt from a vehicle (including aircraft), but their use to access hard to reach locations is perfectly acceptable. Then there's the guy in Texas who tried to start up an online hunt where you could literally shoot a canned deer by simply clicking your mouse button. That's way over the line, and the Texas DNR nipped it in the bud very quickly as it violated several laws (the deer couldn't be checked in by the shooter, the provider didn't mandate the online huntere needed a Texas hunting license or deer tag, etc.).
 
For those cpmplaining about the "modern" muzzle loaders, you'll be glad to know that Idaho has a muzzleloading hunt and a "traditional" muzzleloading hunt. In addition to the above, Idaho will not permit the use of 209 primers in a muzzleloader only hunt. Fortunately, I can convert my CVA Hunterbolt to a percussion cap ignition.
 
Thanx gents for the input!Where my problem with the modern M/L lies is:In British Columbia,some years past we had a blackpowder M/L season for moose and had it recinded because of modern scoped inline rifles.You can't believe the uproar this created but the Fish and Wildfie branch said they were like any other modern rifle and closed the season.So,in event,us traditional shooters were blocked from a special season of quality hunting.IMHO,Roy
 
I see how that could have been frustrating but I don't know if I would blame that on the "Modern Muzzle loader" rather blame should be put on the fish and wildlife branch for not setting up proper restrictions.(If they felt that using the modern M/L was too much of an advantage for that season) ie. no sabots, iron sights only, no 209 primer ignition ect...


that sort of thing is an excuse for Fish and wildlife branch to close a season probably due to political nonsense rather then equipment used.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's the book according to Camper!

Camper
 
I own a traditions .50 cal. cap lock which was given to me by my brother-in-law and I love it. I'm shooting T/C 350 gr. Maxi-Hunter in it and I can't wait to shoot a WhiteTail with it . I'm using 100 gr. of Pyrodex for my load. To me a traditional muzzle loader is the only way to go for black powder hunting.
HAVE A GOOD DAY,
spires5d
 
Richracer1":15lhiz9e said:
For those cpmplaining about the "modern" muzzle loaders, you'll be glad to know that Idaho has a muzzleloading hunt and a "traditional" muzzleloading hunt. In addition to the above, Idaho will not permit the use of 209 primers in a muzzleloader only hunt. Fortunately, I can convert my CVA Hunterbolt to a percussion cap ignition.

I forgot to add that in addition to no 209 primers, you have to use open sights, ie no scopes on muzzleloader hunts in ID.
 
Ahhh, the old divide and conquer anti-hunter attitude!

Cut my seasons the way I like to hunt, perhaps you traditional hunters should only be allowed to use what was available when your rifles were designed!

You so so full of it, driving to your hunting locations in SUV's and then using ATV's, snowmobiles, etc... :(
What about BP substitutes, you want those outlawed too...right?

TRADITIONAL, Give me a break!

You still get only one shot, and muzzleloader competitions shot at 1,000 yards well over 100 years ago.

edge.

PS Several years ago SportsAfield had an small article on In-Line muzzleloaders. It showed a sketch of an In-Line Flintlock rifle With a closed case covering the hammer and pan to keep it dry. Built by Henry Nock circa 1775.
Wheel Lock and Flintlock rifle had closed compartments as early as the 1500's......are these too MODERN for you too !!
 
Sports Afield January 2002:

COPYRIGHT 2002 Hearst Magazines, a Division of the Hearst Corporation

The classification of "modern in-line" muzzleloaders as "primitive weapons is an ongoing controversy. This is causing arguments among muzzleloader shooters and driving some state wildlife agencies to prohibit in-line muzzleloaders from primitive-weapons hunting because they seem "too modern." In-line muzzleloaders, however, predate the percussion cap. Several existing examples, dating from the mid-1700s, are virtually identical to modern in-lines except they feature flintlock ignition.

As early as the 1500s, wheel locks and flintlocks were encased inside compartments built in to some guns to protect the priming powder. By the mid-1700s, this had evolved into prototypical in-line lock systems using cylindrical bolts, coil springs, and a variety of cocking levers and triggers, operationally identical to modern in-line muzzleloaders. A few percussion in-lines were built in the early 1800s, but eventually the simple and inexpensive side-hammer percussion lock snuffed out the costly, antiquarian in-line muzzleloaders that now seem so far ahead of their time.

Ironically, weather-protected locks and positive straight-line ignition, major advantages of modern in-line muzzleloaders, are key issues in the current "too modern" controvert.


COPYRIGHT 2002 Hearst Magazines, a Division of the Hearst Corporation
 
Richracer1":1a4l56xv said:
Richracer1":1a4l56xv said:
For those cpmplaining about the "modern" muzzle loaders, you'll be glad to know that Idaho has a muzzleloading hunt and a "traditional" muzzleloading hunt. In addition to the above, Idaho will not permit the use of 209 primers in a muzzleloader only hunt. Fortunately, I can convert my CVA Hunterbolt to a percussion cap ignition.

I forgot to add that in addition to no 209 primers, you have to use open sights, ie no scopes on muzzleloader hunts in ID.

After reviewing the Idaho 2007/2008 Big Game book, I found that the following for "Muzzleloader Only" hunts":
Only loose powder - no pellets
Projectiles must be within .010 of the bore diameter - no sabots
Loaded w/patched round ball or conical non-jacketed projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy
Ignition must be flint, percussion cap, or musket cap - no 209 primers
Equipped with exposed pivoting hammer and have an exposed ignition system

Looks like Idaho has banned the use of "Modern Inline" muzzleloaders for muzzleloader only hunts and staying with the "traditional" muzzle loading firearms.
 
Richracer1":1c8nua5u said:
Projectiles must be within .010 of the bore diameter - no sabots

Technically I think that this is a screw-up!

Don't most folks shoot either .485 or .490 ball out of a 50 caliber rifle?
A 50 caliber rifle normally has from a .505 to about .510 diameter, this is the bore diameter! I think that most folks will be in violation!

edge.
 
Pennsylvania has a "muzzleloading season" in mid October in which all forms of muzzleloaders are acceptable for use (flintlocks, percussions, and inlines).

Beginning the day after Christmas, PA has a "flintlock ONLY" season which lasts until mid January or so.
 
I really don't care what you shoot( long as it is legal) If I want to shoot a muzzelloader that is an inline or a flintlock that is entirely up to me or should be.....this infighting about blackpowder guns is senseless. If you want to be Daniel Boone then go for it.......but please don't put down the other guy that wants to use the best available advancements to his advantage. Nosler bullets are cutting edge...this is a Nosler forum...if you want to rant and rave about inline hunters you may be well served to go to a forum that serves that....I don't like bashing ...in any form...let us go in peace...........Merry Christmas......
 
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