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 Post subject: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:25 pm 
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Did some reloading yesterday. Trying to find a workable load for Speer 100 gr hot core in my 250 Savage. Dad always liked his Speer's but I haven't been able to make them work well. However, given the current "shortage" I figure to use them up before my BT's Per the recommendations from Nosler below I loaded up some w/ 32.5 grains VHT N150, Also at 32 Grains and some at 30 Grains. Nosler data on the page below only loads down to 30.5 Gr. My older Speer manual lists this powder down to 28 Gr. Will the 30 Gr. load be safe?

https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/250-3000-savage/

Thanks for the thoughts- CL

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:34 pm 

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I was taught right or wrong, because powder can vary lot to lot up to 10%.

10% of 30 grains is 3 grains.

I looked at the Hornady manual for the 250 savage with 100’s, they didn’t have the powder you are using, but I saw they basically make a table and fill in way south of 10%.

I think it would be safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:58 am 

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The short answer is, "Yes, your 30 grain load should be safe."

Nosler data, as is true of almost all manufacturers that produce reloading manuals, is pressure tested to ensure the loads are safe as tested. Nosler consistently lists a range of charges beginning with minimum loads at 4 grains below max. This allows a safety factor of roughly 5 to 10 percent below maximum charge. The general advice you have received to begin at 10% below max is a good rule of thumb which will keep you out of danger.

However, you are mixing data for the BT with data for the Hot Cor, which means you may have differing bearing surfaces. This could potentially introduce a new parameter. Fortunately, I don't see this to be the case.

Here are QL projections for Speer bullets.

Code:
Cartridge          : .250 Savage
Bullet             : .257, 100, Speer SP 1405
Useable Case Capaci: 40.886 grain H2O = 2.655 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.515 inch = 63.88 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Vihtavuori N150 *C

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   94    33.57   2594    1494   37629   8203     96.4    1.259
-09.0   95    33.94   2622    1527   38857   8293     96.8    1.241
-08.0   96    34.32   2650    1560   40128   8380     97.1    1.223
-07.0   98    34.69   2679    1593   41441   8465     97.5    1.204
-06.0   99    35.06   2707    1627   42798   8546     97.8    1.186
-05.0  100    35.44   2735    1661   44201   8624     98.1    1.169
-04.0  101    35.81   2763    1695   45652   8700     98.4    1.152  ! Near Maximum !
-03.0  102    36.18   2791    1730   47152   8771     98.7    1.135  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  103    36.55   2819    1765   48705   8840     98.9    1.119  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0  104    36.93   2847    1800   50311   8905     99.1    1.102  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  105    37.30   2875    1836   51972   8967     99.3    1.086  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0  106    37.67   2903    1872   53692   9025     99.5    1.071  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  107    38.05   2931    1908   55473   9079     99.6    1.055  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0  108    38.42   2959    1944   57316   9129     99.8    1.040  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  109    38.79   2987    1981   59226   9176     99.8    1.025  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  110    39.17   3014    2017   61205   9218     99.9    1.011  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    105    37.30   2998    1996   62262   8680    100.0    1.008  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    105    37.30   2703    1622   41962   8821     94.5    1.190

Cartridge          : .250 Savage
Bullet             : .257, 100, Speer BTSP 1408
Useable Case Capaci: 40.813 grain H2O = 2.650 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.515 inch = 63.88 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Vihtavuori N150 *C

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   95    33.57   2597    1498   37748   8186     96.4    1.258
-09.0   96    33.94   2625    1531   38983   8276     96.8    1.240
-08.0   97    34.32   2654    1564   40259   8362     97.2    1.222
-07.0   98    34.69   2682    1597   41579   8446     97.5    1.204
-06.0   99    35.06   2710    1631   42943   8527     97.9    1.186
-05.0  100    35.44   2739    1665   44354   8605     98.2    1.168
-04.0  101    35.81   2767    1700   45813   8679     98.4    1.151  ! Near Maximum !
-03.0  102    36.18   2795    1734   47322   8751     98.7    1.134  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  103    36.55   2823    1770   48882   8819     98.9    1.118  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0  104    36.93   2851    1805   50498   8883     99.1    1.101  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  105    37.30   2879    1840   52169   8944     99.3    1.086  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0  106    37.67   2907    1876   53899   9001     99.5    1.070  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  107    38.05   2935    1912   55690   9055     99.6    1.054  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0  108    38.42   2963    1949   57545   9105     99.8    1.039  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  109    38.79   2990    1986   59467   9151     99.9    1.025  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  110    39.17   3018    2022   61458   9193     99.9    1.010  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    105    37.30   3002    2001   62503   8656    100.0    1.007  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    105    37.30   2706    1626   42115   8803     94.5    1.189


You are well below the safe values for a minimum load with either of these bullets.

The QL projection for the Nosler BT is as follows:

Code:
Cartridge          : .250 Savage
Bullet             : .257, 100, Nosler BalTip 25100
Useable Case Capaci: 38.913 grain H2O = 2.527 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.515 inch = 63.88 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Vihtavuori N150 *C

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   96    32.49   2572    1468   37368   7861     95.9    1.264
-09.0   97    32.85   2600    1501   38614   7949     96.3    1.245
-08.0   98    33.21   2628    1534   39897   8035     96.7    1.227
-07.0   99    33.57   2657    1567   41222   8117     97.1    1.208
-06.0  100    33.93   2685    1601   42594   8197     97.4    1.190
-05.0  101    34.30   2713    1635   44014   8274     97.8    1.172
-04.0  102    34.66   2742    1669   45483   8348     98.1    1.155  ! Near Maximum !
-03.0  103    35.02   2770    1704   47004   8419     98.4    1.138  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  105    35.38   2798    1738   48580   8486     98.6    1.121  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0  106    35.74   2826    1774   50211   8550     98.9    1.105  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  107    36.10   2854    1809   51902   8611     99.1    1.089  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0  108    36.46   2883    1845   53653   8669     99.3    1.073  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  109    36.82   2911    1881   55469   8723     99.5    1.057  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0  110    37.18   2939    1917   57352   8773     99.6    1.042  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  111    37.54   2966    1954   59304   8819     99.7    1.027  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  112    37.91   2994    1991   61329   8862     99.8    1.012  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    107    36.10   2980    1972   62379   8347    100.0    1.010  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    107    36.10   2680    1594   41767   8441     93.9    1.193


As you can see, it has a maximum charge somewhat lower than the maximum charge for either of the Speer bullets. If all you are seeking to do is burn powder and send the Speer bullets into the backstop, the loads will work. If you are endeavouring to produce loads for practise, you can up your charge considerably.

The loads you are testing are quite anemic, both from the pressure tested data of either Speer or Nosler. The QL projections generally align with the Nosler data that you are loading well below max.

Extremely low loads can produce problems resulting from insufficient pressure to move the projectile from the barrel or by introducing pressure spikes. I don't know that you are in that territory, but you certainly are not even approximating a load approaching maximum charge.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:26 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:35 pm
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Dr Mike, that is amazing SW!

I lost my
Manuals in the flood.
Bought digital Hornady manual and loving that, 2 old Noslers on a used book site, and I guess I bought Sierra but don’t recall it, but have it.

I think it’s time to buy Quickload for me.
Maybe a Christmas present for myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:52 am 
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Thanks Dr. Mike, Still a little unsure. As you note, low charge,induced pressure spikes were my main concern. Speer manual #13 lists 28 grains as a safe load @ 2255 fps with the Speer bullet I am using. Anemic for sure! I Understand also that the Nosler data references the BT. I think I'll pull the 30 grain Speer loads. Would just like to find an accurate load for those Speers. Thanks for the QL! CL

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:34 pm 

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FWIW, the latest Speer manual doesn't even mention that powder for the 250 Sav.
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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:15 pm 
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BTT- CL

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:44 pm 
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So i waa sable to get some Speer/ Vitovouri N150 loads out for a test finally. Unfortunately, I lost track of the order of shots fired but I think they are mostly marked accurately.
Green box - 4 shots of 75 gr Hornady v max, normally my most accurate load, normally. Not this day.

First group- Three shots below the dot were, 100 gr Speer over 32.5 Gr. - heavy bolt lift.

Second group, top center 32 Gr Vitivouri under 100 Gr speer.
Third group- top right string connected w/ lines. Same load.
Fourth Group- Lower left - two shots touching, one high, (called). 32.5 grains Heavy bolt lift . 100 gr balistic tip.
Fifth group - Lower right three shots in the cloverleaf again, 32.5 grains Heavy bolt lift . 100 gr ballistic tip.

So, the heavy bolt lift concerns me... given that the loads above list 34.5 grains as a mid range load.

Keep in mind that any time I shoot, "operator error" is a major factor. no denying it, honestly given my compromised neurology, no fixing it some times....
Obviously, the Noslers shoot. The clover leaf may be a Lucky shots....

Main question would you try the 34.5 gr load?
Any other thoughts, observations are appreciated. Main idea here is to find n accurate/safe load for those Speer bullets. Thanks CL (sorry photo turned side ways)

Image

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Last edited by cloverleaf on Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:50 pm 
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Well- I thought opinions were like belly buttons... cL

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:12 am 
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I don't ever go all the way down to minimum rifle load data any more!

For any new to me cartridge, I use to reload a ladder in duplicates starting at the book minimum for each potential powder I wanted to test.
Some years ago I ran into the case not completely sealing at the min load.
Since I have always stepped up some from the minimum listed to begin this testing.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:09 am 

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CL, A little hard to play armchair quarterback from however many miles away. I find it odd that you're actually getting heavy bolt lift with the 32.5 gr load, BUT if you are indeed getting heavy bolt lift, then I most certainly would not go 2 grains higher to 34.5 in one jump like you were asking about above.

Sounds like a darn good way to go from heavy bolt lift to locking the bolt up on your gun, or worse, to me. But that's just internet opinion, I'm not there to see what actually is going on, so what would I know really. I tried blowing your picture up and it appears your primers are nice and soft looking yet, but it's kind of a blurry picture at best when zoomed out, so again just internet opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:57 pm 
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ShadeTree wrote:
CL, A little hard to play armchair quarterback from however many miles away. I find it odd that you're actually getting heavy bolt lift with the 32.5 gr load, BUT if you are indeed getting heavy bolt lift, then I most certainly would not go 2 grains higher to 34.5 in one jump like you were asking about above.

Sounds like a darn good way to go from heavy bolt lift to locking the bolt up on your gun, or worse, to me. But that's just internet opinion, I'm not there to see what actually is going on, so what would I know really. I tried blowing your picture up and it appears your primers are nice and soft looking yet, but it's kind of a blurry picture at best when zoomed out, so again just internet opinion.


Thanks Shade- Its what I was thinkin too. Thats why I was lookin for opinions (internet or not :) ) Cant wait to get rid of them Speers..... :) CL

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm 

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Did you try to repeat the load?

Might be worth doing…


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:02 pm 
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Did not try 32.5 again. Had these loaded so I tried a couple....Obviously pulled the rest. Newer brass might have helped but not worth the risk. Learn from my cautionary tale... The h%ck with the Speers. Sticking with proven Nosler loads. CL
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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:41 am 
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mjcmichigan wrote:
Did you try to repeat the load?

Might be worth doing…


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I agree! the 100 BT looks promising CL. Maybe a seating depth tweek? If the magazine will permit.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use - BROKEN
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:33 pm 
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Well- since the post above, I have separated 2 more cases w/ a different load. All right, that's weird.... So I shot four rounds of Remington factory and they showed definite signs of imminent separation at the web. I dont have photo's but they are definitely different than rounds previously fired from that box. So..... I took it to what I think is a very good gunsmith. He didnt see any evidence of a damaged chamber or galling of the lugs or damage to the bolt face. He was unsure if it was a head space issue. He told me honestly, "I just dont do barrels anymore", so he refered me to another smith who builds competitive rifles and who he thinks may a have a set of go/ no-go gauges fora 250 Savage. 200 miles away.... :evil:

UGH- this just sucks. Lots of sentimental value in this old rifle, and if I need to get the barrel set back, or get a new barrel, the rifle isnt worth it, because I will not be able to use it long enough to get the value out of it before my body just wont. (Sorry feeling sorry for myself some too).

IS it possible I am just "over working" the brass? No - cant be - shows up on once fired factory loads. I am just too old and busted up to "start over" with a new rifle, and I dont want to give up on my 250.... (Just venting- I guess) Thoughts...? Thanks CL

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:29 pm 

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I’m not a gun smith, but thinking about web separation..

Factory loads separating,
Hand loads separating, not near max.

Previously the gun handled both new and hand loads no problem. No web separation.

I’m assuming it’s a model 99 in 250-3000
savage.

Wondering, and I don’t know the answer..
Is it possible the lever action has a bent screw where the lever attaches? Sometimes jamming the round tighter and other times looser…

Usually moving parts fail, not static parts. Barrels have movement through the stretching process of shooting, I think it’s worth looking closer at the chamber and the action.

The factory new ammo failing seems like a key clue.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:06 pm 
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Thanks for the reply MJC- No my 250 is a FN Mauser bolt action not a 99. Gunsmith who looked at it last night saw no signs of Damage to the lugs, bolt face, extractor. However this was a visual inspection, no bore scope etc. Chamber was also explored w/ a "dental pic" which did not reveal any signs of damage or a ridge or ring in the chamber. The photo below is of factory rounds firesd in the rifle, three before the "case head seperation incident" and four after. perhaps I am over thinking this?
Imageimage uploader

The next photo is of several cases fired from the same box of shells using a different rifle. To my eye now it seems that there are similar Marks or indications around the web of the case. Obviously I could load these again and see how it goes. Would you?

Image

Here again, I could load these again and see how it goes. Would you?

This final photo is of the last seperation. Cases are 6x fired. 32gr of VHT N150 under a 100 gr BT. I dont fault them for failing, but I can tell you that the "paper clip" failed to find veidence of imminent separation prior to firing. Would you pull bullets on the rest of these and scrap the brass?
Image



Thanks CL

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:21 pm 

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I have a 300 H&H that does this with Hornady brass. The initial “stretch” is .025-.030 on new brass. Too much. They are good for 3 firings. Norma, Nosler (which is Norma), RP, and WW are sized within .010 new and are good for many, many firings…no big initial stretch. The rifle headspace is minimum go. This is not measured at the belt but from case head to shoulder datum.

You can rent gages from 4-D in Kalispell Montana if you want to check it. Good outfit in my experience.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:36 pm 

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I’m pretty stumped.

The factory loads separating is the data point that derails me.

Given its a FN bolt, old, but fine rifle and well made… I tend to think it’s not the gun and it’s overworked brass. The factory loads is the one that has me circling back to the gun.

If I thought it was you loads, I’d ask about two practices.. how do you set your dies for FL sizing and what kind of lube do you use and does it stick at all. I use imperial wax sparingly the whole brass length and the inside of the neck a little. The brass slides in and out easily. I don’t have to reef on the handle to unstick a case.

Not a fan of pulling bullets, and less a fan of unsticking cases.

When they separated, was there any resistance? Can you tell if the separation happened during combustion vs extraction?

Could you have carbon build up in the neck/ chamber area? I’d think the the gunsmith would have made comments snide or other wise if it needed a deep cleaning…

Others weigh in?

Maybe set those aside and make some new loads, hopefully with newer brass?


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:14 pm 

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What is the shoulder length from base on full sized or new factory brass and brass fired in the gun . If the difference is enough to cause problems the fix would be to fire form brass to your chamber with powder puff loads .

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:05 pm 

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The case head stumps me. I would have thought a headspacing problem but in this case, no pun intended I have no clue. All I can add, if you want to try is how I set up my die which males the brass a custom fit to your chamber.

This is how I set up my sizing die for bottleneck cartridges.

1. Take a once fired factory round and blacken the neck and shoulders with a Magic Marker or Sharpee pen. Some people like to smoke the neck and shoulder, but I find the Magic Marker/Sharpee pen a bit better.

2. Carefully lubricate the case.

3. Loosen the lock ring on the sizing die and back off about two turns from when the die is set to touch the shell holder.

4. Size the case. Note where the marks are on the case and turn the die down about a half a turn and size again. Turn down some more, and resize again. What you are looking for is the marks on the blackening just touching the shoulder.

5. Clean the lube from the case and try it in the rifle. It may chamber just a bit on the snug side. If so, turn the die down ever so slightly, lube and size again. Wipe off the lube and try in the rifle. If it slides in as easily as a factory round, you should be good to go. If not, usually one more very slight adjustment should fix the problem.

6. Tighten the locking ring for the die and you're done. You have just set your sizing die up for a custom fit to your specific rifle, rather than a generic one size fits all guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:10 am 

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If these are first time fired factory rounds, I'm stumped! Never seen this separation before on a new factory round first time fired!

However, if they are reloads from factory brass, the shiny ring on the brass above the case head leads me to believe that it's a headspace issue & F/L resizing without setting the die for correct head spacing is the problem.
Correct head spacing is measured from the centre of the case shoulder to the case head, with your F/L sizing die set up to accommodate this dimension.
Tools are available to measure the headspace using a fired case to find the dimension, but the correct setting can be found by trial & error when setting up the F/L sizing die.
Good luck resolving the issue (y)

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:18 pm 
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Headspace like already said, but also just maybe the powder measuring went bad. I've experienced some of that with both electronic and beam scales and it took a while to catch on. How did you measure CL? About the factory loads picture, the one with 3 before the separation and 4 after: it would be nice to know all the dimesions of those cases measured at several points from web to shoulder, and the length from base to shoulder and base of neck. If ones prior to the separation event measure less, then something strange is happening. Did you alter your cleaning process recently - products, patches, brushes, etc.? We are all wondering with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum safe loads- which data do I use
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:39 pm 
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Thanks all for the replies. I cannot account for the apparent "increase in headspace" as it appears in the rings around the case. OTHER THAN the possibility that I have over resized the brass. I have been shooting reloads from this rifle for 20+ years and some of the brass is that old. Those two factors in combination might produce the case head seperation. I have not been able to put the calipers to these cases but I am interested make the following comparisons: Measurements of the new factory un-fired vs once fired vs the cases that have separated. I'm also going to try and gently polish/ clean the chamber in an effort to make sure that the "rings" I'm seeing are not the result of carbon etc left from the separated cases.
Also- I have enough unfired new brass to duplicate or come close to the loads in question, with new brass. Come spring I have a friend who has offered to go through my reloading process w/ me and "critique" my process. He shoots @ 600 and 1000 yards competitively, and does a lot more reloading than I do. For the present I will stick with new brass. I dont shoot that much.
In any event, for now, I am likely out of shooting and reloading 'til April. Too D@mn cold. Depressed.... Thansk again for the replies. IF I get a chance to do any more work I willl update the thread. CL

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