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 Post subject: The Trend towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:39 am
Posts: 2064
Location: Northern Maine/New Brunswick Border
I have often commented on here many times about folks using expensive premium grade bullets; that are designed for 500/1000 lb animals; on game that does NOT require that type of bullet.
Also ditto for using toooo heavy a bullet weight, for the animal your trying to harvest.
Here is a movie ; where both hunters are shooting tooo heavy a bullet; with tooo thick a jacket. Both sheep could have been killed instantly with a 25/06/270.
Great movie of Magnum calibers with premium bullets not working for the game selected....... Click on the link below
and watch what happens to these two Rams.

https://youtu.be/vNpiavMm0eU

Later in the movie , they used the same loads to shoot a beautiful big Bull Moose that is a 12/1300 lb animal.
Of course the bullets work flawlessly on that sized game.
Great example of how poorly Elk/Moose bullets work on 250lb animals.......

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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:10 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:42 am
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Location: Washington State
That's one heck of a moose!


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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:01 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:27 pm
Posts: 1574
Bet that moose in Alaska is closer to 1600-1800 pounds!
Definitely a difference in game weight (300 lbs and 1800 lbs) for one bullet...but using one bullet weight for the hunt, the prudent choice would definitely be opting for one more suitable to the larger game targeted.
While the rams ran for a ways after the shot, they did expire within a reasonable timeframe given the bullet placement.
The moose dropped immediately, but again appears to be due more to bullet placement than from bullet weight and design.
It definitely would have been nice if they had identified the cartridge and bullet weight used to harvest those animals on that hunt.

When you look at the performance that has been realized on the small antelopes in Africa when using the 375 H&H on a one rifle safari, it's hard to argue that larger, heavier bullets (270 and 300 gr) designed for larger and dangerous game, are not effective on very small game. They are effective, and from all accounts, provide very little meat damage as the bullets pass through. Again, bullet placement is key.


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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:58 pm 
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Some one once said, "the trouble with Remington Core Lokts- is that they kill stuff with boring regularity...". If the bullet goes in the right place. FWIW I've been lucky, never needed anything more than a BT for the limited things I do. CL

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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:00 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:39 am
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Location: Northern Maine/New Brunswick Border
Agreed, placement is paramont! However from guiding lots of sheep hunters on Northside of the Brooks Range;
And some in the Alaska Range. We used to take about 25 Rams a season out of our area. So over the years we have
watched many Rams harvested. I shot some Dandy's myself with my .270W out to 450yds. It worked perfectly.
Exactly like it does on deer. I shot a couple of them with my old .338WM, it worked very poorly , or just like their Magnums did in the movie.........
Both of them ran off , because those big heavy bullets passed thru without any expansion, transferring Jack for
energy. The bulk of the hunters mostly all arrived with big
Magnums ( they all feel the grizzlys may attack them )
The standard outcome was just what is in this movie......
Pass thru with Rams taking off. Most of them required 2nd and even 3 shots........
We had a 243W " lender" rifle for fellas that don't want to
mess with dragging guns around on the airlines. It was really the camp rifle when wolves showed up at camp for
Sheep meat. Lots of hunters used it over the years. Kills were normally sheep dropped right in their tracks! The 100gr bullet at 3000fps worked perfectly for a Dahl Ram.
The Eskimo's favorite rifle hunting them for subsistance out of Kaktovik (Barter Island) in winter off Snowmobile
was .22 Magnums. We shot numberous Ram that had .22
bullets stuck in their horns!
Having flown hundreds of Moose quarters over the last 40
years, And having weighed some of the largest ones, we found it took a massive quarters to ever weigh 200lbs. So most folks are grossly over estimating their weights. We guided the Mulchatna area when 70" Bulls were as common as a 55" is nowadays. I never saw a moose that I thought would have weighed 1500........
I used to fly two quarters in the back, headskin on rear seat strapped down and the antlers tied to wing strut alloff a 600' strip, with a Cub.
Here in Maine big bulls, are normally all weighed at tagging station,
Which of course is rarely ever done in Alaska, where they are quatered.
A huge Maine Bull will weigh a 1000lbs dressed out, on certified scales. An old guide from
Talkettna told me he had clients shoot big bulls right around town in the 1950's, they took some over with the tractor to the Alaska railroad station, He told me a 65/70" could weigh in the
1300lb range, with the guts and heart n liver removed on the railroad scales.
But most of them in the 1200lb range. I think 20/30% larger than a big Maine moose is a fair estimate of what I have seen from the Hundreds of moose I have been mixed
up with. However this will always boil down to the Elmer Keith crowd vs the Jack O'Conner crowd............and we have all ways been in the laters camp.
Your mileage my very. :wink:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/neYc4Gsvqy3Zi6eY8
E

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Last edited by 35 Whelen on Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:13 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:20 pm
Posts: 30093
Location: Northern Virginia
I’ll take a great bullet that expands widely and holds onto enough weight to make it thru the animals I’m hunting. Don’t much care if the bullets exit but I’d really like them to be balled up under the hide on the far side.

Accubonds, Scirocco, BBC, Interbonds are great my purposes. Ballistic Tips that are heavier for caliber are danged near in the same ballpark as the others.

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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:54 pm 
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35 W- I was agreeing with you :) Maybe just didn't say it right. A nod to your experience sir. CL

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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:58 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:27 am
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35 Whelen wrote:
Agreed, placement is paramont! However from guiding lots of sheep hunters on Northside of the Brooks Range;
And some in the Alaska Range. We used to take about 25 Rams a season out of our area. So over the years we have
watched many Rams harvested. I shot some Dandy's myself with my .270W out to 450yds. It worked perfectly.
Exactly like it does on deer. I shot a couple of them with my old .338WM, it worked very poorly , or just like their Magnums did in the movie.........
Both of them ran off , because those big heavy bullets passed thru without any expansion, transferring Jack for
energy. The bulk of the hunters mostly all arrived with big
Magnums ( they all feel the grizzlys may attack them )
The standard outcome was just what is in this movie......
Pass thru with Rams taking off. Most of them required 2nd and even 3 shots........
We had a 243W " lender" rifle for fellas that don't want to
mess with dragging guns around on the airlines. It was really the camp rifle when wolves showed up at camp for
Sheep meat. Lots of hunters used it over the years. Kills were normally sheep dropped right in their tracks! The 100gr bullet at 3000fps worked perfectly for a Dahl Ram.
The Eskimo's favorite rifle hunting them for subsistance out of Kaktovik (Barter Island) in winter off Snowmobile
was .22 Magnums. We shot numberous Ram that had .22
bullets stuck in their horns!
Having flown hundreds of Moose quarters over the last 40
years, And having weighed some of the largest ones, we found it took a massive quarters to ever weigh 200lbs. So most folks are grossly over estimating their weights. We guided the Mulchatna area when 70" Bulls were as common as a 55" is nowadays. I never saw a moose that I thought would have weighed 1500........
I used to fly two quarters in the back, headskin on rear seat strapped down and the antlers tied to wing strut alloff a 600' strip, with a Cub.
Here in Maine big bulls, are normally all weighed at tagging station,
Which of course is rarely ever done in Alaska, where they are quatered.
A huge Maine Bull will weigh a 1000lbs dressed out, on certified scales. An old guide from
Talkettna told me he had clients shoot big bulls right around town in the 1950's, they took some over with the tractor to the Alaska railroad station, He told me a 65/70" could weigh in the
1300lb range, with the guts and heart n liver removed on the railroad scales.
But most of them in the 1200lb range. I think 20/30% larger than a big Maine moose is a fair estimate of what I have seen from the Hundreds of moose I have been mixed
up with. However this will always boil down to the Elmer Keith crowd vs the Jack O'Conner crowd............and we have all ways been in the laters camp.
Your mileage my very. :wink:
E


Excellent post.


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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:51 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:13 pm
Posts: 1491
I've used mostly cup and core bullets or my home cast bullets for hunting over the 60 plus years I've shot or hunted. I started playing with the .35 Whelen with 250 gr. cup and core bullets until I drew a tag for a special deer hunt. You could use regular cup and cores but they preferred one go with a monometal bullet on a voluntary basis as the hunt area (norther Kaibab forest of Arizona) is considered part of the condor flyway. I've hunted the Kaibab/Arizona strip country a few times and have never seen one of those oversized buzzards yet. Anyway the 225 gr. TSX shot so well with excellent velocity and accuracy that I've used them ever since. I only had once chance for a wall hanger deer but if I shot it, that TSX would have passed clear though and killed or wounded several deer behind him. Probably would have happened regardless of which bullet I used, monometal or cup and core. :(

I've only shot one elk with the 30-06 and I used the 165 gr. Accubond for that one. Range was about 100 yards. The bullet hit right at the short ribs and ended up in what was left of the elks left lung. The bullet was not recovered and there was no exit wound. My thoughts are it was still in the jellied mess that once was the left lung.

I'll probably shoot premium bullets now until the day I die. Why? Because I bought a large quantity of mostly Nosler Partitions in .270 and 7MM plus bunch of Speer Grand Slams, both old and new style for $10 a box, new and unopened. Ran me a bit over $300 for the entire pile. Just was an old guy at a gun show selling what he could as he no longer had the desire to load and shoot. He didn't say why and I didn't ask. I suspect it was for reasons of health on his part.
Paul B.


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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:19 pm
Posts: 462
Seriously I have to ask. What part of the game animal expiring within eyesight was not acceptable ?
I've had a dozen whitetails, Axis, Black Bear & hogs do a Bang/Flop DRT, all with the same rifle and load.....then had a calm, feeding 100# whitetail doe take off like a horse out of the blocks at the Ky derby with a dead center lung shot and race 200 yds.
???????????
Go figure. I never once blamed my bullet of choice, because I knew it was up to the task.

Big Game does weird $hit, get used to it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:33 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:13 pm
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"Big Game does weird $hit, get used to it."

You got that right.
Paul B.


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 Post subject: Re: The Trent towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:21 am 

Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 9:05 am
Posts: 862
I'm with you 35 Whelen use the correct bullet for the Game and the Cartridge and as while I like the performance from Noslers 120gr BT in my .264 Win Mag on Deer and Antelope when I used it up close it was not good but from 200 to 500 it worked great.
I have nothing but good things to say about Remington's Core lokt's ,s bullets performance except the BC numbers are not very high. My Brother & Father don't reload and just buy Remington with excellent results.
Just like one should not use a varmint bullet on big game I see what you are saying about thin skin big game.
But I have seen some weird pooh also with double lung shots like Antelope doing a 50 yard sprint then crashing into the ground and raising the dust. Sometimes there just dead on there feet and don't know it yet.
If I were to go Antelope hunting with my 6mm Remington I would load up Hornady's 100gr BTSP because it's very accurate and opens up quickly but I will not be useing it on deer anymore as it under penetrated up close on a Deer I shot poorly.


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 Post subject: Re: The Trend towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:13 am 
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Ok Did I miss the part in the video where they discuss what calibers and bullets they were using? I watched the whole thing I did not catch it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Trend towards premium bullets.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:05 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
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Couldn't agree with you more E. I remember sometime in the last yr watching a hunting show on TV where a guy was overlooking an alfalfa field from a open ladder stand. A deer came out looked like 150 yds or so, and he got all ready by putting on his ear muffs first because he was shooting some super duper magnum with a muzzle brake on it that could deafen every house dog in 3 counties.

At the shot the deer kicked, lurched a little sideways, and ran off the field like a scalded cat. They of course recovered it after tracking beyond the field, but I just shook my head and remembered thinking well heck, I could've gotten that result with a 222 and nobody would've even known I'd shot. I guarantee he was using 1 of those "best bullets" that exhibited the greatest penetration with the most weight retention.


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