Looking for: CFE 223 load data for 6mm Rem (244 Rem)

brians356

Beginner
Dec 3, 2012
85
0
Anyone know of a source for CFE 223 load data for 6mm Remington? (Hodgdon does not publish any. They do publish CFE 223 data for both 243 Win and 243 WSSM.)

Brian
 
Code:
Cartridge          : .244 Rem.
Bullet             : .243, 100, Nosler PART SP 35642
Useable Case Capaci: 49.549 grain H2O = 3.217 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon CFE223

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   66    33.60   2506    1394   33122  10067     96.5    1.405
-18.0   68    34.44   2562    1458   35208  10327     97.3    1.372
-16.0   69    35.28   2619    1523   37405  10573     98.0    1.338
-14.0   71    36.12   2675    1589   39725  10805     98.6    1.300
-12.0   73    36.96   2730    1655   42173  11020     99.1    1.263
-10.0   74    37.80   2785    1723   44758  11218     99.4    1.228
-08.0   76    38.64   2840    1791   47485  11400     99.7    1.194
-06.0   78    39.48   2894    1860   50363  11562     99.9    1.162
-04.0   79    40.32   2948    1929   53401  11706    100.0    1.131  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   81    41.16   3001    1999   56607  11834    100.0    1.100  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   83    42.00   3053    2070   59993  11958    100.0    1.072  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   84    42.84   3105    2140   63569  12080    100.0    1.044  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   86    43.68   3156    2212   67346  12200    100.0    1.017  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   87    44.52   3207    2283   71339  12316    100.0    0.991  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   89    45.36   3257    2355   75562  12430    100.0    0.966  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   91    46.20   3307    2428   80030  12540    100.0    0.942  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     83    42.00   3152    2207   70426  11589    100.0    1.000  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     83    42.00   2904    1873   49540  12225     98.5    1.167

Code:
Cartridge          : .244 Rem.
Bullet             : .243, 100, Nosler PART SP 35642
Useable Case Capaci: 49.549 grain H2O = 3.217 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

18 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP                          103.9     49.5     3.21    3198    99.1    61500   14422   1.050  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560                    105.6     49.3     3.19    3183    96.3    61500   14556   1.046  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO                    105.8     51.4     3.33    3168    94.8    61500   14548   1.053  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                       104.1     48.8     3.16    3168    96.7    61500   14114   1.038  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                           110.0     48.8     3.16    3168    96.7    61497   14114   1.038  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22                 105.8     48.9     3.17    3163    98.1    61500   14101   1.051  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                     108.7     49.1     3.18    3161    97.9    61500   14105   1.052  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17                  93.2     44.7     2.89    3152   100.0    61500   12851   1.049  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                     105.4     52.4     3.40    3141    98.6    61500   13513   1.044  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25                 110.0     50.0     3.24    3138    99.8    57626   13888   1.073  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19                 102.4     46.8     3.03    3118    97.9    61500   13414   1.049  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                      97.9     46.2     2.99    3118    99.5    61500   13130   1.055  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      92.5     44.7     2.89    3116    99.1    61500   13159   1.057  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        92.5     44.7     2.89    3116    99.1    61500   13159   1.057  ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP                           97.5     44.0     2.85    3102   100.0    61500   12648   1.061  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550                     94.7     44.2     2.86    3100   100.0    61500   12778   1.065  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350                       96.7     44.2     2.86    3097   100.0    61500   12643   1.078  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204                           97.1     45.8     2.97    3094    97.7    61500   13061   1.049  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                      107.7     47.8     3.10    3089    95.9    61500   13116   1.046  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC                   103.5     47.8     3.10    3089    95.9    61500   13116   1.046  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                           102.3     44.7     2.90    3083   100.0    61500   12386   1.070  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100                      105.9     48.4     3.13    3071    99.5    61500   12614   1.081  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780             100.9     48.6     3.15    3068    97.7    61500   12718   1.053  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165                    107.9     48.8     3.16    3065    98.3    61500   12559   1.058  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                100.1     44.2     2.87    3064   100.0    61500   11681   1.060  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380                        90.0     42.0     2.72    3059    99.9    61500   12204   1.068  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350                       99.8     44.6     2.89    3058    98.6    61500   12418   1.054  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350                            97.9     44.5     2.88    3058    98.7    61500   12398   1.054  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old                       90.3     41.7     2.70    3050   100.0    61500   11753   1.079  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160                    107.8     47.2     3.06    3044    96.6    61500   12455   1.054  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2                        110.0     50.2     3.26    3040    95.4    52540   14121   1.130
IMR 4007 SSC                        91.9     42.6     2.76    3039    98.7    61500   12242   1.062  ! Near Maximum !

What bullet do you have in mind?
 
Code:
Cartridge          : .244 Rem.
Bullet             : .243, 95, Nosler BalTip 24095
Useable Case Capaci: 49.056 grain H2O = 3.185 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon CFE223

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   67    34.00   2568    1391   33236  10026     95.9    1.371
-18.0   69    34.85   2626    1455   35390  10292     96.7    1.338
-16.0   71    35.70   2685    1521   37648  10544     97.5    1.305
-14.0   73    36.55   2743    1588   40028  10781     98.2    1.267
-12.0   74    37.40   2801    1656   42545  11002     98.7    1.231
-10.0   76    38.25   2859    1724   45206  11206     99.2    1.196
-08.0   78    39.10   2916    1794   48020  11393     99.5    1.162
-06.0   79    39.95   2973    1864   50996  11561     99.8    1.130
-04.0   81    40.80   3029    1935   54142  11710    100.0    1.099  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   83    41.65   3084    2006   57471  11838    100.0    1.070  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   84    42.50   3139    2078   60992  11956    100.0    1.041  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   86    43.35   3193    2150   64720  12071    100.0    1.014  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   88    44.20   3246    2223   68666  12183    100.0    0.987  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   89    45.05   3299    2296   72849  12293    100.0    0.961  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   91    45.90   3352    2370   77281  12399    100.0    0.937  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   93    46.75   3404    2445   81983  12501    100.0    0.913  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     84    42.50   3244    2220   71790  11573    100.0    0.971  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     84    42.50   2981    1875   50215  12178     98.1    1.134

Code:
Cartridge          : .244 Rem.
Bullet             : .243, 90, Nosler E-Tip 59165
Useable Case Capaci: 48.295 grain H2O = 3.136 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon CFE223

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   69    34.00   2610    1361   32550   9832     94.7    1.350
-18.0   70    34.85   2670    1425   34698  10105     95.7    1.317
-16.0   72    35.70   2731    1491   36978  10364     96.6    1.284
-14.0   74    36.55   2792    1557   39373  10610     97.4    1.247
-12.0   75    37.40   2852    1625   41890  10841     98.1    1.211
-10.0   77    38.25   2912    1694   44552  11055     98.6    1.176
-08.0   79    39.10   2971    1764   47373  11253     99.1    1.143
-06.0   81    39.95   3030    1835   50360  11432     99.5    1.111
-04.0   82    40.80   3088    1906   53525  11592     99.8    1.080  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   84    41.65   3146    1978   56878  11733     99.9    1.051  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   86    42.50   3203    2051   60433  11854    100.0    1.022  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   87    43.35   3260    2124   64203  11961    100.0    0.995  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   89    44.20   3316    2197   68203  12065    100.0    0.968  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   91    45.05   3371    2271   72449  12165    100.0    0.943  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   93    45.90   3426    2346   76959  12263    100.0    0.918  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   94    46.75   3481    2421   81753  12357    100.0    0.894  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     86    42.50   3318    2199   71382  11452    100.0    0.952  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     86    42.50   3034    1840   49529  11969     97.4    1.115

Code:
Cartridge          : .244 Rem.
Bullet             : .243, 90, Nosler Accubond 56357
Useable Case Capaci: 49.572 grain H2O = 3.219 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon CFE223

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   68    34.80   2633    1386   33261  10120     95.2    1.339
-18.0   70    35.67   2694    1451   35458  10395     96.2    1.307
-16.0   72    36.54   2755    1517   37765  10657     97.0    1.272
-14.0   73    37.41   2816    1585   40188  10903     97.7    1.235
-12.0   75    38.28   2876    1653   42750  11133     98.4    1.200
-10.0   77    39.15   2936    1723   45463  11346     98.9    1.165
-08.0   79    40.02   2995    1793   48335  11542     99.3    1.132
-06.0   80    40.89   3054    1864   51376  11718     99.7    1.101
-04.0   82    41.76   3113    1936   54596  11874     99.9    1.070  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   84    42.63   3171    2009   58007  12010    100.0    1.041  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   85    43.50   3228    2082   61621  12127    100.0    1.013  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   87    44.37   3284    2155   65451  12238    100.0    0.986  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   89    45.24   3340    2229   69513  12346    100.0    0.960  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   91    46.11   3395    2304   73823  12451    100.0    0.934  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   92    46.98   3450    2379   78399  12553    100.0    0.910  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   94    47.85   3505    2455   83261  12651    100.0    0.886  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     85    43.50   3340    2229   72642  11729    100.0    0.944  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     85    43.50   3061    1873   50638  12298     97.8    1.105

Code:
Cartridge          : .244 Rem.
Bullet             : .243, 85, Nosler PART SP 16314
Useable Case Capaci: 50.897 grain H2O = 3.305 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon CFE223

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   68    35.60   2678    1354   32427  10205     94.2    1.320
-18.0   70    36.49   2741    1418   34573  10494     95.2    1.288
-16.0   72    37.38   2804    1484   36842  10771     96.2    1.258
-14.0   73    38.27   2866    1550   39224  11033     97.0    1.220
-12.0   75    39.16   2928    1618   41729  11279     97.7    1.185
-10.0   77    40.05   2990    1687   44381  11509     98.4    1.151
-08.0   78    40.94   3051    1757   47190  11722     98.9    1.118
-06.0   80    41.83   3112    1828   50164  11915     99.3    1.087
-04.0   82    42.72   3173    1900   53314  12089     99.7    1.057  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   83    43.61   3233    1972   56650  12243     99.9    1.028  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   85    44.50   3292    2045   60185  12375    100.0    1.000  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   87    45.39   3350    2119   63933  12488    100.0    0.973  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   89    46.28   3408    2193   67906  12595    100.0    0.947  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   90    47.17   3466    2267   72123  12699    100.0    0.922  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   92    48.06   3522    2342   76599  12799    100.0    0.898  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   94    48.95   3579    2417   81354  12896    100.0    0.874  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     85    44.50   3413    2198   71028  11964    100.0    0.930  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     85    44.50   3115    1831   49388  12435     97.1    1.092

Code:
Cartridge          : .244 Rem.
Bullet             : .243, 80, Nosler BalTip 24080
Useable Case Capaci: 50.518 grain H2O = 3.280 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon CFE223

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   69    36.00   2741    1335   32181  10085     93.1    1.289
-18.0   71    36.90   2806    1399   34331  10381     94.3    1.258
-16.0   73    37.80   2871    1465   36622  10664     95.3    1.228
-14.0   75    38.70   2937    1532   39061  10933     96.2    1.192
-12.0   76    39.60   3001    1600   41629  11187     97.1    1.157
-10.0   78    40.50   3066    1670   44331  11425     97.8    1.123
-08.0   80    41.40   3130    1740   47193  11645     98.4    1.091
-06.0   82    42.30   3194    1812   50231  11847     99.0    1.060
-04.0   83    43.20   3257    1884   53455  12030     99.4    1.030  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   85    44.10   3320    1958   56876  12191     99.7    1.001  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   87    45.00   3382    2032   60510  12332     99.9    0.973  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   88    45.90   3444    2106   64369  12451    100.0    0.947  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   90    46.80   3505    2182   68471  12550    100.0    0.921  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   92    47.70   3565    2257   72834  12645    100.0    0.896  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   94    48.60   3624    2333   77476  12736    100.0    0.872  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   95    49.50   3683    2410   82421  12824    100.0    0.849  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     87    45.00   3512    2191   71623  11918    100.0    0.905  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     87    45.00   3194    1812   49449  12305     96.4    1.064
 
DrMike,

Wow, thanks, I didn't expect anything like reams of data.

Interestingly, I have been poring over 243 Win and 243 WSSM data (both CFE 223 and powders close to CFE in the burn rate charts like Varget and H380) and had extrapolated a 33-grain starting charge behind a 107-grain bullet. Your data suggest 33.6 grains starting charge for a 100-gr bullet, which jibes with the charge decreasing slightly for the incrementally heavier bullet.

Question: Are these data from an interior ballistics modeling program, or is it at least in part based on actual testing?

The reason I ask is probably obvious, but in fact I called Hodgdon's tech line, and was informed that they found CFE 223 to be "too erratic" in 6mm Rem for publication or further testing. Which doesn't ring true when they have published data for both 243 Win and 243 WSSM, and those are well within 5% of the case capacity of 6mm Rem.

I should note also that Hodgdon does not publish CFE 223 data for any bullet heavier than 75 grains in those two .243 caliber cartridges, so that does suggest CFE 223 is erratic behind heavy bullets.

Brian
 
brians356":t3t4lli8 said:
Question: Are these data from an interior ballistics modeling program, or is it at least in part based on actual testing?

The reason I ask is probably obvious, but in fact I called Hodgdon's tech line, and was informed that they found CFE 223 to be "too erratic" in 6mm Rem for publication or further testing. Which doesn't ring true when they have published data for both 243 Win and 243 WSSM, and those are well within 5% of the case capacity of 6mm Rem.

I should note also that Hodgdon does not publish CFE 223 data for any bullet heavier than 75 grains in those two .243 caliber cartridges, so that does suggest CFE 223 is erratic behind heavy bullets.

Brian

The data are projected from formulae built upon either measured parameters or suppositions. Hence, all case volumes are SAAMI standards. Burn rates are means. If you know the burn rate of a powder, you can adjust the program to compensate. Since few of us have bomb calorimeters or sophisticated measuring devices, we caution that burn rates may vary up to ten percent and watch for signs of excessive pressure, etc. Herr Broemel does conduct tests in his own laboratory when generating data for new powders/bullets/etc.

I would certainly respect the word of the ballisticians at Hodgdons when they caution against using a particular powder given particular conditions. They know whereof they speak. Any time we move into territory in which data is untested, we are on our own. Thus, the old adage applies--start low and work up carefully. Watch for pressure signs. Be cautious in working up a load. As with all situations, just because a powder/bullet/case combination appears reasonable is no proof that it is stable or acceptable.
 
DrMike":5b9c54c7 said:
I would certainly respect the word of the ballisticians at Hodgdons when they caution against using a particular powder given particular conditions. They know whereof they speak. Any time we move into territory in which data is untested, we are on our own. Thus, the old adage applies--start low and work up carefully. Watch for pressure signs. Be cautious in working up a load. As with all situations, just because a powder/bullet/case combination appears reasonable is no proof that it is stable or acceptable.

I should expand on my goal here:

I am preparing to use the Tubb "Final Finish" fire lap kit on an old (1970s) Rem 700 Varmint in 6mm Rem. The bullets are 107-gr Sierra HPBT. I have a couple pounds of CFE 223, and since rapid copper fouling is the reason I intend to run the lapping bullets through it, I figured CFE would be a good powder for the process, as part of the process is frequent cleaning to remove copper fouling. Starting with a clean bore, CFE has been documented to prevent copper fouling.

(Please, please chaps, let's not turn this thread into a discussion of the relative merits of fire lapping!)

Tubb recommends using a starting load for one of the faster powders deemed appropriate for the 107-gr bullet.

Hodgdon publish Varget and IMR 4064 (the former close to CFE 223, and 4064 significantly faster.)

Sierra publish IMR 4095, IMR 4064, and IMR 4320 (all significantly faster than CFE 223) behind the 107-gr bullet.

Since I do not intend to ever charge higher than a starting load, I am not too worried about erratic pressures, which would be a concern if I was working up a load approaching max pressure. So my goal was to identify a reasonable starting load for CFE 223, period.

Brian
 
Code:
Cartridge          : .244 Rem.
Bullet             : .243, 107, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1570
Useable Case Capaci: 47.818 grain H2O = 3.105 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon CFE223

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   66    32.40   2437    1411   33590   9791     97.3    1.438
-18.0   68    33.21   2491    1475   35689  10032     98.0    1.407
-16.0   69    34.02   2545    1539   37905  10259     98.6    1.372
-14.0   71    34.83   2599    1605   40243  10471     99.1    1.332
-12.0   73    35.64   2652    1671   42710  10667     99.4    1.295
-10.0   74    36.45   2705    1738   45313  10847     99.7    1.259
-08.0   76    37.26   2757    1806   48058  11010     99.9    1.224
-06.0   78    38.07   2809    1874   50954  11154    100.0    1.191
-04.0   79    38.88   2860    1943   54009  11283    100.0    1.160  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   81    39.69   2910    2012   57232  11410    100.0    1.129  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   82    40.50   2960    2081   60634  11534    100.0    1.100  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   84    41.31   3009    2151   64226  11655    100.0    1.072  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   86    42.12   3058    2222   68019  11774    100.0    1.044  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   87    42.93   3107    2293   72027  11889    100.0    1.018  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   89    43.74   3155    2364   76264  12002    100.0    0.993  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   91    44.55   3203    2437   80745  12113    100.0    0.969  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     82    40.50   3051    2212   71110  11184    100.0    1.028  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     82    40.50   2822    1892   50118  11864     99.0    1.196

Bear in mind that burn rates vary with case capacity, bullet weight and even environmental factors. Still, I wouldn't be deterred, especially at the starting charges for what you are proposing. Let us know how it turns out for you.
 
DrMike":2f09ogs4 said:
Bear in mind that burn rates vary with case capacity, bullet weight and even environmental factors. Still, I wouldn't be deterred, especially at the starting charges for what you are proposing. Let us know how it turns out for you.

I will be using a chronograph, hoping for ~2600 fps (bullet needs to obdurate properly.)

How does the powder burn rate get entered into the formula? I presume there is a lookup table with a value for "CFE 223", but an actual value not something the layman is ever privy to - we're only given a rough list of relative rates - then told not to rely on it!

Again, thanks so much!

Brian
 
Factors affecting burn rates ensure such disparate variations that it is almost impossible to factor them into QL. It is best to simply accept the average given and mentally allow for up to ten percent variation through observation of pressure signs. Different powders exhibit different burn rates dependent upon case fill and bullet weight. It is my understanding that CFE 223 is one of those powders that changes burn rate as bullet weight increases. This could account for the instability the good folks at Hodgdon referenced.
 
DrMike":3k0z5rqd said:
Factors affecting burn rates ensure such disparate variations that it is almost impossible to factor them into QL. It is best to simply accept the average given and mentally allow for up to ten percent variation through observation of pressure signs. Different powders exhibit different burn rates dependent upon case fill and bullet weight. It is my understanding that CFE 223 is one of those powders that changes burn rate as bullet weight increases. This could account for the instability the good folks at Hodgdon referenced.

For one thing, CFE is a ball powder, and those tend to be more erratic than stick powders, and more often produce a low load density. Speer, for example, often recommends magnum primers for ball powders like H380 even in small cartridges.

I think I'll try 33 grains of CFE 223.

Brian
 
Update:

I settled on 34 grains CFE 223 and fired 5 of the Tubb F.F. bullets. Of these I chronographed the last 4 shots. The average was 2606 fps, but erratic - they varied between 2517 and 2710 fps.

I assume anything > 2500 fps will adequately obdurate the bullet, specifically mentioned in the Tubb instructions. There was significant felt recoil - it sure felt like the bullet was getting kicked in the butt anyway. As the lapping progresses I may see less velocity spread.

In any event, I did not blow up the gun trying to estimate a starting load, nor were there any undue pressure signs. So now I will continue through the Tubb bullets (45 more to go.)

Special thanks to DrMike for the model data.

Brian
 
Let us know how the bullets work out for you. Never used them, but I bet some rougher factory barrels would be able to take advantage of them.
 
I only fired 5 of the first 10 (the most aggressive) bullets, just to see if the gun blew up :shock: , and to clock them, so I could adjust the charge for the other loads if required.

Since it's CFE 223 powder, I was curious if I would get any copper fouling, knowing how badly it fouled before (the whole reason for the Tubb treatment.) As it turned out I did get some copper fouling, but it cleaned out much more easily than before (using Patch Out.)

My thoughts on the copper are that, since I am running such a small amount of powder (only 34 grains in a case that holds, as I recall, 58 grains of CFE) the stuff doesn't have a fair chance to do its magic and clean up after itself, as it were. And the 107-gr Sierras have a lot of bearing surface, so there's plenty of copper being presented to the bore.

I will update as I progress through the Tubb series.

Brian
 
Used the FF bullets some years back on a 7mm mag Sendero that was fouling pretty easily.

Easy process. Not sure if they really did a lot for my rifle, but it was accurate before and after. Fouling was reduced as I recall. It's been a while, sold that rifle long ago.

Guy
 
Update:

I am 4/5 through The Final Finish series - all 4 abrasive sets fired. Now there are ten rounds of regular Tubb boron nitride-coated bullets for final "burnishing".

I have been using 34.0 grains of CFE 223 at 2650 fps for this process. But I have encountered significant copper fouling along the way, to my surprise, especially early on - it has been reduced considerably as one might expect. But, since CFE 223 is supposed to eliminate copper fouling, I'm somewhat taken aback.

I have a theory as to why: Since I am shooting long 107-grain bullet, with a light load of fast-burning (for heavy 6mm bullet) powder, it could be that there is not enough CFE being burned to vaporize and eliminate the copper being laid down by the large bearing surface of these bullets. The CFE might only work properly in near full-charge loads.

It would be interesting to bore scope this barrel when it is fouled, and see if the copper is laid down primarily towards the muzzle, rather than near the chamber. I can say for sure that, after firing a few rounds, there is copper readily visible in good sunlight just inside the muzzle. Maybe the CFE gets depleted before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Another thought - these Tubb bullets are boron nitride coated, which is actually a somewhat copper color itself - less orange and more bronze hued. I would think this would reduce copper fouling in a smooth bore. When I use the Patch-Out cleaner, I get definite blue color on the patches.

Anyway, I had hoped using CFE would have eliminated the copper and made the repeated cleaning (every five rounds) a lot easier than it has been.

Any comments appreciated.
 
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