Notice: This site is not mobile friendly, we recommend you download tapatalk for a mobile friendly experience of our forum.

It is currently Wed May 23, 2018 8:23 am

  • Shop Nosler
  • Shooters Pro Shop
  • Newsletter Signup

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:50 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:19 pm
Posts: 402
OK guys, I have a serious quandary about this: Jug penetration.

I'm a 7/08 & 338 Fed guy true & true. Nuff said, end of story.

Here's the quandary. If either of these two cartridges can put a bullet through 4,5 or sometimes 6 jugs and show exemplary performance, matching the whiz-bang Mag's that don't penetrate any better, then Why?

Hydro-static shock? 3-4 inches flatter at a range I'll not/most should not shoot at anyway?

What does a jug test really reveal?


Last edited by Gunner46 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:34 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:16 am
Posts: 1025
Mostly jug testing reveals how well the bullet holds up, expands and penetrate. Putting the jugs out at different distances mostly will show different results. Most bullets will penetrate more jugs at a longer distance due to less expansion than at 25 yards IMO.

_________________
Mark


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:32 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 4780
Location: Western Montana
TackDriver284 wrote:
Mostly jug testing reveals how well the bullet holds up, expands and penetrate. Putting the jugs out at different distances mostly will show different results. Most bullets will penetrate more jugs at a longer distance due to less expansion than at 25 yards IMO.

What he said and it's just fun to test your bullets to see how they hold up and how they do.

_________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER / RMEF / Montana Wild Sheep Foundation
Boone & Crockett Club / Montana Bow Hunters Association


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:08 pm
Posts: 20386
Location: Rockford, MI
Gunner

I started shooting bullets into wet phone books to recover the bullet and make comparisons to different brands, weights, calibers, etc. The phone books were interesting because they would actually show the temporary wound cavities. The problem was that they were messy and you were left with picking peices of paper pulp out of the bullets to get a true weight. There was also inconsistently due to different grades of paper and how long they soaked in water.
Along came the plastic gallon milk jugs. They are easy to work with and consistency is a given. What I have concluded is if a bullet holds together in water, it will do so in game. As for penetration, 4 jugs is a deer bullet. 6 jugs is an elk or moose bullet. 7-8 jugs is serious penitration for big game that fights back.
My 8 juggers include 338 RUM 250 gr PT, 416 Wby 400 gr PT and 45-70 300 gr PT.

JD338

_________________
Speed sells but Accuracy kills.

Noslers Rock


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:11 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:42 am
Posts: 14205
Location: Washington State
Despite whatever shortcomings they have, I like the milk-jug tests because:

1. They're repeatable. Scotty and I can do our tests 2500 miles apart, and months or years different, and we have a repeatable standard: a row of one-gallon plastic jugs filled with water.

Other media is seldom so easily replicated.

2. CHEAP. Save milk jugs for a month or two, add water, and you've got test media.

3. EASY clean up. Takes but a moment to gather up the jugs and throw 'em out or recycle 'em.

This is hugely different from heavy, water-soaked newsprint.

I do like the way they make a bullet expand, and what I've found is that those bullets which tend to penetrate deeply on wild game, also penetrate deeply in the jugs. Some bullets do very poorly in the jugs.

My tests surprised me a bit with the Ballistic Tip - I've seen much higher weight retention, and much better penetration than I expected. This led me to return to the 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip for my standard 30-06 load. Even on elk and black bear, it has performed very well. Exactly as indicated by the jug tests.

Regards, Guy


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:26 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:42 am
Posts: 14205
Location: Washington State
Gunner46 wrote:
I'm a 7/08 & 338 Fed guy true & true. Nuff said, end of story.

Here's the quandary. If either of these two cartridges can put a bullet through 4,5 or sometimes 6 jugs and show exemplary performance, matching the whiz-bang Mag's that don't penetrate any better, then Why?

Hydro-static shock? 3-4 inches flatter at a range I'll not/most should not shoot at anyway?

What does a jug test really reveal?


I think what you're asking is really about the difference between your two cartridges, and the high velocity magnum cartridges. Not so much about the jug tests.

Shoving a bullet FASTER doesn't make it penetrate hide, muscle and bone better.

A lot of magnum shooters will not like that statement. However, it's true.

Often moving a bullet faster just makes it expand more on impact. A widely expanded bullet usually doesn't penetrate as far as one that expands less.

I believe that bullet type is more important for deep penetration than high velocity. A mono-metal bullet like the Barnes X, penetrates very deeply. A Nosler Partition, which often sheds much of the front end, penetrates deeply.

I like magnums, and was shooting a 257 Wby mag when I was a young guy, before many of our posters were alive, in the 1970's. I like magnums because they shoot flat & fast! :) First started using a .30 cal magnum in the early 1980's, a .300 Win mag. It was like a supercharged 30-06! I liked. Then I fell for the 7mm Rem mag. It worked great!

Then, I ended up back with the 30-06... 'cause for me, for my purposes, it works just as well without as much recoil & muzzle blast. My purposes being elk, bear, and mule deer out to 300 or maybe 350 yards.

I still love my 25-06, and turn to it when I favor more velocity and a flatter trajectory. :grin:

Your 7mm-08 and your 338 Federal are great cartridges which don't rely on whiz-bang velocity to get the job done. Use 'em and fill your tags. You're not missing much, if anything, by not having a magnum rifle.

Guy


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:23 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
Posts: 459
A lot of good information in the responses. Jug testing is a simple way to test penetration and compare bullets in the particular caliber and cartridge you're shooting.

Guy is right. Faster impact with the exact same bullet does not equal better penetration, most times less. Just more and quicker expansion which can mean more shocking power if the bullet is good enough to not turn to dust at impact with magnum speeds.

In my view though the selling point of a magnum is not more power at close range where it's not needed. Bang flop dead is bang flop dead. But instead extends the same thumping power of a lesser cartridge to a good bit farther distance in some cases. I don't find myself in need of that in my hunting. Some people do.


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:38 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:20 pm
Posts: 28578
Location: Northern Virginia
Shooting at jugs has taught me a ton of things about bullets, twist, and how they equate to what they do when they hit animals.

This was the 210 Swift I tested before elk hunting this fall in water jugs.

Image

Here is the same bullet I pulled out of my bull elk this fall after crushing the near side leg.

Image

I can't hardly see much difference.

I have also seen that sometimes if you push a well built bullet FAST, they will penetrate further than pushing the same bullet slow. A great example of this is a Bitterroot Bonded Core. If you push them faster, they will fold back further and reduce the overall frontal area and penetrate further, slow them down and they expand out to wide, front meplat that still penetrates very well, but not as much as when they are really cranked up.

I have also seen a pretty big difference in using a reduced load that would be a distant recovery, vs actually running the bullet full tilt and actually striking a target at the longer range. Some folks say it doesn't matter but I have seen the difference.

Jugs, paper, or whatever will never really duplicate an animal, but they do give exactly what Guy mentioned, a real way for all of us to cheaply and easily compare bullets across the board using the same exact test medium.

I've also been tricked by our jug tests a few times. One example was a Sierra 250 TMJ out of my Marlin 444. In the jugs it had always resulted in a PERFECT expanded bullet. When I actually ran one of them into a decent buck the bullet grenaded on the leg joint. The finisher shot going through softer tissue looked just like the jug tested bullets.

Just a lesson I learned, don't use cheap bullets that aren't designed for the faster speeds, you may get away with it but there is a much better chance of being burned.

I'd also agree with Jim on the amount of jugs for game in general.

3 jugs is plenty for deer, if the bullet has some sorta integrity.

4-5 seems to be about how most of the 7mm Accubonds, BBC's, Swift Sciroccos, etc stop.

6-8 is a 35 Whelen with a 250 Partition, 338 with a 225/250 Partition and a few others. Those are the ones you aren't likely to catch in anything but big boned, quartering shots.

For me these days, for elk, I'll take 4-5 jugs and wide expansion with a bullet that retains a bunch of weight. Chances are you'll find it balled up in the hide on the far side of whatever you are shooting.

Great thread though. It is fun to walk out back and pop some jugs. A ton of information if you wanna dive that far down the rabbit hole.

_________________
SEMPER FIDELIS

Actually, there are only two classes of people posting here: Model 70 owners and those who wish they had one. PATENT PENDING


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:12 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:19 pm
Posts: 402
Guy, you're right to an extent about my wondering about my cartridge choices over a Mag, but the quandary still remained with about the tests. I too used to shoot a 7RM, back when I thought I 'needed 'it, but it's never been resolved over someone testing , let's say a 300WM with a 180 AB, for an elk hunt. He gets into the 6th jug and has primo expansion. Guy #2 uses a 338 Fed with a 210 NP and, son of a B', gets into the 6th jug, with classic expansion. Guy #3 uses a 30/06, 165 Mono....and guess whut !

Is it some affirmation of cartridge/ bullet choices, or a honest example of field performance?


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:39 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:20 pm
Posts: 28578
Location: Northern Virginia
Gunner46 wrote:
Guy, you're right to an extent about my wondering about my cartridge choices over a Mag, but the quandary still remained with about the tests. I too used to shoot a 7RM, back when I thought I 'needed 'it, but it's never been resolved over someone testing , let's say a 300WM with a 180 AB, for an elk hunt. He gets into the 6th jug and has primo expansion. Guy #2 uses a 338 Fed with a 210 NP and, son of a B', gets into the 6th jug, with classic expansion. Guy #3 uses a 30/06, 165 Mono....and guess whut !

Is it some affirmation of cartridge/ bullet choices, or a honest example of field performance?


At the heart I agree with you Gunner, but I would much rather have the 300 Win Mag on a bull elk standing at 350-400 yards cause it is still going to have great expansion at that distance and penetrate plenty far.

Not saying the 338 Fed won't, but once bullets get down to around the 2000 FPS mark they are starting to look pretty skinny in the expansion department.

_________________
SEMPER FIDELIS

Actually, there are only two classes of people posting here: Model 70 owners and those who wish they had one. PATENT PENDING


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Jug Test Question
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:36 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:13 pm
Posts: 154
Location: Central Florida
Gunner46 wrote:

Is it some affirmation of cartridge/ bullet choices, or a honest example of field performance?


I think it is both.
When shooting a thin skinned animal like a whitetail deer that is standing perfectly broadside, most any bullet on the market will get the job done. When we step up to a larger, thicker bodied quarry, success can be defined by your bullet choice. I test bullets because I am always looking for what I believe to be the perfect combination of penetration and energy transferred. I live/hunt in the south east and I have found that the bullets that seem to work well on whitetails are not the best choice on large boar hogs. I have also found bullets that work well on large hogs are not the best on Whitetails. After jug testing a few bullets it will give you the affirmation that the cartridge/bullet combo you have selected is right for the field performance you desire.

Next week I have a friend flying in for a hog hunt. He told me he wants to try something new and has swapped out his barnes bullets for Hornady ELD's... He has never killed a hog and making that happen for him is very important to me. Hogs are tough critters and I think they should be shot with a tough bullet that can penetrate thru their shield and bone. I have used Barnes bullets with great success on hogs. From what I am reading about ELD's, they are on the opposite end of the spectrum. I wish we had an opportunity to jug test this combo and possibly give me a warm fuzzy feeling about this scenario.


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Moderators: JD338, NOSLER, FOTIS, NoslerV, Nosler4

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

This forum is:

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net