Notice: This site is not mobile friendly, we recommend you download tapatalk for a mobile friendly experience of our forum.

It is currently Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:26 am

Shop Nosler

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:36 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:21 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Central PA
What is the reason for not allowing bottleneck cartridges in many midwestern states? More importantly, why don't hunters in those states fight to change the regulations?



Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:55 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:00 am
Posts: 2311
Location: Tennessee
To limit the range in populated areas is the reason.

I expect more and more states to adopt these rules as time goes on.

The reason the residents don't fight it is because they've fought to get it... some of these states were shotgun only before this.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

_________________
Lynn

Image


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:02 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:21 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Central PA
I am from central PA which is very populated and we don't have very many problems with homes being shot.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:42 am
Posts: 14679
Location: Washington State
Ya, it's a new thing for the states to even allow rifles at all for deer hunting. Was only shotgun, archery or muzzle loader in most of them from what I understand.

Maybe eventually more rifle cartridges will be allowed?

This is a good step, even though it's kinda odd.

Guy


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:25 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:57 am
Posts: 895
Location: Campbell, NY
For many years, Steuben County (and many others) in New York State only allowed deer hunting with shotgun slugs, pistols, bows, and muzzleloaders. Back in the 1970's it would sound like a war on opening morning. Hunters were blazing away with smooth bore barrels with bead sights and foster style slugs. Slugs were flying everywhere. It was pretty common to hear a hunter fire all five rounds in his shotgun. Sometimes, if they were using a Winchester M12, you would hear seven shots. I have heard multiple hunters fire at a deer running across a hillside with 10-15 shots being fired. The advent of rifled shotgun barrels, sabot slugs, and scoped shotguns helped reduced the number of shots fired. But, multiple shots were still the norm.

Across the border in PA, where they used rifles, you would hear single shots, sometimes a second shot. Only occasionally would you hear someone shoot several times. Personally, I felt a lot safer in PA.

About fifteen years ago, they had a couple of years of "trial periods" in Steuben County with rifles. Guess what.

They found that the accident rate went down. Now Steuben county and several others are allowing the use of rifles. Apparently shooting one well placed accurate bullet was safer than spraying the woods with shotgun slugs. (saying in a sarcastic tone) Who would have figured????

In the 1970's and 1980's we would have gladly accepted straight wall rifle cartridges if we couldn't have gotten essentially all centerfire rifle cartridges. Dan


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:21 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Central PA
PA Game Commission did a test several years ago comparing ricochets from rifle bullets and shotgun slugs. Slugs traveled further due to the higher retained mass. Bullets broke up and lost more energy.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:29 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:49 am
Posts: 87
As stated it is a measure to reduce the range of lethal energy so to make a “safer” hunting environment. I live in Michigan and this is a continual debate when all factors are considered and it makes for an absolute nightmare for the DNRE. You have cartridge development such as the 450 Bushmaster and 350 Legend, smokeless muzzleloaders, modern shotgun slug ammo, population growth that should extend zones but needs years of research. Then throw in elevated stands that are legal now for years and change the shot angles making hunting from these platforms safer than from the ground. Makes for a rather large headache. However, being a Law Enforcement officer who’s patrol area is along the shotgun/rifle line I find accidents regarding homes or people being hit by stray bullets very rare. More are hit on New Years Eve by fools firing guns in the air.
The latest developments such as the 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster are big hits. The guns are well made, accurate and deadly effective on deer out to 250 yards when compared to the old slug guns. Some claim farther but simple physics don’t lie when you see energy, velocity and, trajectory tables. It’s a step in the right direction but a heavy dose of common sense and hunter safety would be better served. People on forums like this are the minority in the hunting world. Most people here are intelligent and “get it” in most all aspects of hunting and shooting. I have seen some really ignorant people with firearms in their hands out in the field unfortunately and, it makes me realize why there are the restrictions in place.


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:49 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:20 pm
Posts: 29560
Location: Northern Virginia
NYDAN wrote:
For many years, Steuben County (and many others) in New York State only allowed deer hunting with shotgun slugs, pistols, bows, and muzzleloaders. Back in the 1970's it would sound like a war on opening morning. Hunters were blazing away with smooth bore barrels with bead sights and foster style slugs. Slugs were flying everywhere. It was pretty common to hear a hunter fire all five rounds in his shotgun. Sometimes, if they were using a Winchester M12, you would hear seven shots. I have heard multiple hunters fire at a deer running across a hillside with 10-15 shots being fired. The advent of rifled shotgun barrels, sabot slugs, and scoped shotguns helped reduced the number of shots fired. But, multiple shots were still the norm.

Across the border in PA, where they used rifles, you would hear single shots, sometimes a second shot. Only occasionally would you hear someone shoot several times. Personally, I felt a lot safer in PA.

About fifteen years ago, they had a couple of years of "trial periods" in Steuben County with rifles. Guess what.

They found that the accident rate went down. Now Steuben county and several others are allowing the use of rifles. Apparently shooting one well placed accurate bullet was safer than spraying the woods with shotgun slugs. (saying in a sarcastic tone) Who would have figured????

In the 1970's and 1980's we would have gladly accepted straight wall rifle cartridges if we couldn't have gotten essentially all centerfire rifle cartridges. Dan


Same here in Schoharie County. I wanna say it was 2006/2006 that rifles were allowed in my home county. Years before I felt like a sniper with my rifled 11-87 12 gauge since I could hammer a slug accurately in a 150 yard target. The same year it changed I used a new to me 35 Whelen and took a good buck at 250 and a doe at 150 yards and was so much happier. Less recoil and more accurate shots. Way less accidents. What you described about opening morning was the same back home. It wasn’t anything to hear a 100 shots go off before 10 AM opening morning. With rifles you might hear 10-15, maybe..

Funny thing is it changed hunting. While most smarter folks set up in wood lots that were within range of their weapons when using slug guns. Now we have a bunch of folks sitting on fields and places where they can see further. No longer do you get folks pushing deer around much anymore either. They sit in their blinds or stands mostly. Kind of a neat deal either way and funny to see it evolve some. Me, I still like to be in the woods over some smoking hot sign and later in the season really enjoy long walks over the state land to try and push deer in standers direction. We don’t drive hard but it’s more of a still hunt to bump deer. Works well for us as a group though.

I don’t miss those slugs recoil though! My God how those suckers pounded a shooter or especially a young hunter.

_________________
SEMPER FIDELIS

Actually, there are only two classes of people posting here: Model 70 owners and those who wish they had one. PATENT PENDING


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:10 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:49 am
Posts: 87
SJB358 wrote:
NYDAN wrote:
For many years, Steuben County (and many others) in New York State only allowed deer hunting with shotgun slugs, pistols, bows, and muzzleloaders. Back in the 1970's it would sound like a war on opening morning. Hunters were blazing away with smooth bore barrels with bead sights and foster style slugs. Slugs were flying everywhere. It was pretty common to hear a hunter fire all five rounds in his shotgun. Sometimes, if they were using a Winchester M12, you would hear seven shots. I have heard multiple hunters fire at a deer running across a hillside with 10-15 shots being fired. The advent of rifled shotgun barrels, sabot slugs, and scoped shotguns helped reduced the number of shots fired. But, multiple shots were still the norm.

Across the border in PA, where they used rifles, you would hear single shots, sometimes a second shot. Only occasionally would you hear someone shoot several times. Personally, I felt a lot safer in PA.

About fifteen years ago, they had a couple of years of "trial periods" in Steuben County with rifles. Guess what.

They found that the accident rate went down. Now Steuben county and several others are allowing the use of rifles. Apparently shooting one well placed accurate bullet was safer than spraying the woods with shotgun slugs. (saying in a sarcastic tone) Who would have figured????

In the 1970's and 1980's we would have gladly accepted straight wall rifle cartridges if we couldn't have gotten essentially all centerfire rifle cartridges. Dan


Same here in Schoharie County. I wanna say it was 2006/2006 that rifles were allowed in my home county. Years before I felt like a sniper with my rifled 11-87 12 gauge since I could hammer a slug accurately in a 150 yard target. The same year it changed I used a new to me 35 Whelen and took a good buck at 250 and a doe at 150 yards and was so much happier. Less recoil and more accurate shots. Way less accidents. What you described about opening morning was the same back home. It wasn’t anything to hear a 100 shots go off before 10 AM opening morning. With rifles you might hear 10-15, maybe..

Funny thing is it changed hunting. While most smarter folks set up in wood lots that were within range of their weapons when using slug guns. Now we have a bunch of folks sitting on fields and places where they can see further. No longer do you get folks pushing deer around much anymore either. They sit in their blinds or stands mostly. Kind of a neat deal either way and funny to see it evolve some. Me, I still like to be in the woods over some smoking hot sign and later in the season really enjoy long walks over the state land to try and push deer in standers direction. We don’t drive hard but it’s more of a still hunt to bump deer. Works well for us as a group though.

I don’t miss those slugs recoil though! My God how those suckers pounded a shooter or especially a young hunter.




Interesting perspective. I grew up in the extreme north west portion of Michigan’s Upper Peninsula. You’d need to look at a map but on the Keweenaw Peninsula. All rifles that far north but it’s mixed cover. Thick cedar swamps, open hardwoods and rolling hills of ancient Hemlock and White Pine. I find sitting to be something I do after I’ve walked all day. A lot of guys do it and stake claim with a pile of apples. I’ve found it counter productive. The deer know where you are and the wolves use your bait as a spring board for an easy kill I’ve also found that the more guys sitting in an area the less deer you see. The deer go nocturnal quicker and avoid the blinds/baits until dark. Just what I’ve experienced. I’m okay with it though because most blinds and baits are close to a road and leaves the rest of the woods to me.
More on topic, I think these new cartridges are a step in the right direction and will be a gateway to full power rifle cartridges


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:48 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:44 pm
Posts: 1195
Location: Central Minnesnowta
It's hard to push for something seen as potentially decreasing safety, whether the decrease is real or imagined. Who wants to be the beaurocrat or legislator who votes for something that causes a death or injury? Kind of like raising the speed limit, it's by nature an uphill battle.

As a general rule, we here tend to be very safe, ethical hunters with a good understanding of ballistics. Modern shotgun ammo ain't your Grandpa's foster slugs, and in fact are more powerful/longer ranging than straight wall pistol cartridges and many of the straight wall BP rifle rounds. Try explaining that to a legislature, half of whom think "guns are bad" and hunters are uneducated rednecks, you'll get a lot of blank stares and some outright hostility.

I think this is a battle shotgun states are gradually winning, but it is a gradual process. I doubt you'll ever (or should IMHO) see widespread adoption of bottleneck rifle rounds in historically shotgun zones.

Most shotgun only zones tend to be largely agricultural. Opening these areas to bottleneck rifle rounds would lead to more sniping and less hunting in my opinion, (you can already see it with modern shotguns/ammo, now stretch that range to 500 yards??!!) and that would be a negative to the hunting experience overall.

_________________
May all your blood trails have happy endings.


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:33 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:44 am
Posts: 1286
Location: East TN
One simple thing to limit possibility of rifle bullets going a long ways off and hitting house etc. that is used in Northamption Co, NC where it is FLAT LAND is you have to be off the ground at least 8 feet and have written permission on you from the land owner to deer hunt with a rifle. This makes your shot angle being downward into the ground if a miss or a pass through.


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:14 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 12:42 am
Posts: 347
Location: Germany, Lower Saxony
1Shot wrote:
One simple thing to limit possibility of rifle bullets going a long ways off and hitting house etc. that is used in Northamption Co, NC where it is FLAT LAND is you have to be off the ground at least 8 feet and have written permission on you from the land owner to deer hunt with a rifle. This makes your shot angle being downward into the ground if a miss or a pass through.
Don't be too sure about that bullet staying in the ground. There is a study (German only) that at an angle between 5 and 10° some, below 5° all bullets bounce off. Even from soft ground. Like scipping rocks.
Yes, they loose speed. But after reading it, I don't take some shots due to houses somewhere in the background.

Gesendet von meinem HUAWEI VNS-L31 mit Tapatalk


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:49 am
Posts: 87
noslerpartition wrote:
1Shot wrote:
One simple thing to limit possibility of rifle bullets going a long ways off and hitting house etc. that is used in Northamption Co, NC where it is FLAT LAND is you have to be off the ground at least 8 feet and have written permission on you from the land owner to deer hunt with a rifle. This makes your shot angle being downward into the ground if a miss or a pass through.
Don't be too sure about that bullet staying in the ground. There is a study (German only) that at an angle between 5 and 10° some, below 5° all bullets bounce off. Even from soft ground. Like scipping rocks.
Yes, they loose speed. But after reading it, I don't take some shots due to houses somewhere in the background.

Gesendet von meinem HUAWEI VNS-L31 mit Tapatalk



Not surprised about this. As a 20+ year LEO I’ve been made aware of a lot of weird or unexpected behaviors of bullets through unfortunate events and investigations. Buck shot will behave similarly and can be used advantageously. Buckshot when fired at a hard surface such as concrete has been found to “skip” off the ground and stay above the surface about 12”-18” so I’ve been told. Good tactic for getting a load of buckshot underneath a car and to the other side when other means aren’t available.


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:37 pm
Posts: 972
Bullets that hit the ground from an elevated blind would not only decrease in speed but would suffer from significant deformation. This should greatly reduce the potential to travel over distance. IMO most of those bullets probably embed at their original point of impact. Elevated blinds certainly aren't a bad idea in more suburban areas.


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Straight wall cartridges for hunting
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:19 pm
Posts: 450
Hey, us guys have waited for a long, long time to at least have ANY opportunity to hunt with a rifle, straight walled or not.

No, I will not argue the insanity behind why a 38 Special and a 50/110 are legal.

A 38 Spec is absolutely as marginal as one could get....a 50/110 is perfect for a Mastodon, Kodiak Bear, or Elephant. Both are legal for a 100 doe.

A M94 or M336 in a 30/30, 32 Spec, or 35 Rem are illegal because they have a shoulder in the case.

Unless things have changed since last I checked, in IN you can hunt with a rifle chambered with either a 243 or 30 caliber....period. So, a 300RUM is cool, a 7mm/08 gets ya locked up!


Top
Online Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ]  Moderators: JD338, NOSLER, FOTIS, NoslerV, Nosler4

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

This forum is:

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net