How much gap between the forearm and barrel to free float?

NYDAN

Handloader
Sep 17, 2013
1,703
1,042
My Rem 700 with the new Hart barrel isn't shooting as well as I expected it should. I see there is a difference in gag between the forearm and barrel with more gap on one side and less gap on the other. I can slide a .009" thick business card between the barrel and the forearm all the up to the bedding. However, I can NOT slide .019" file folder material all the way up. It binds up near the swivel stud on the side with the narrow gap. The .019" material seems to fit everywhere else.

Is it possible that I need to relieve the side with the narrow gap a bit until I can slide the .019" material all the way up?

The appearance of the narrow gap on one side is annoying me. So, even if I don't need to open the gap to .019", will it do any harm to do so?

It is a Bell & Carlson composite stock. If I sand a little what should I use to seal it afterwards?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Dan
 
Business card clearance should be more than enough for free floating. That said some composite stocks flex too much....is it bedded? Free floating without bedding on a composite can be an issue.

Far as will it hurt to sand out material to match the other side, no. It's what I would do just to make it look nice. Composite stocks would not need sealed. But if you want to hide your dry sanding marks that could be seen when the stock is off, just wipe it with paint thinner or polyurethane on a rag, just a small dab of either on a rag will do to blend the sanded area in with the rest of it.
 
ShadeTree":fzz4wex4 said:
Business card clearance should be more than enough for free floating. That said some composite stocks flex too much....is it bedded? Free floating without bedding on a composite can be an issue.

Far as will it hurt to sand out material to match the other side, no. It's what I would do just to make it look nice. Composite stocks would not need sealed. But if you want to hide your dry sanding marks that could be seen when the stock is off, just wipe it with paint thinner or polyurethane on a rag, just a small dab of either on a rag will do to blend the sanded area in with the rest of it.

Yes, it is bedded. Thanks for your suggestions.

Dan
 
If it wasn't bedded I would tell you to relieve a little material from the tang area of the stock where you see the less clearance in the barrel channel since the tang acts as a ruder and steers the barrel in the direction you want it to go and it doesn't take much too make a change centering the barrel in the barrel channel. If the recoil lug has a little play in the bedding you may still be able to change the alignment.
I had to remove all the bedding material from a B&C Medalist to correct this same problem and then skim bed it back.
From what your describing I think your action is under stress since you have plenty of clearance in the channel and the forearm of a B&C stock is rather stiff and shouldn't flex.
 
NYDAN":362pj15y said:
ShadeTree":362pj15y said:
Business card clearance should be more than enough for free floating. That said some composite stocks flex too much....is it bedded? Free floating without bedding on a composite can be an issue.

Far as will it hurt to sand out material to match the other side, no. It's what I would do just to make it look nice. Composite stocks would not need sealed. But if you want to hide your dry sanding marks that could be seen when the stock is off, just wipe it with paint thinner or polyurethane on a rag, just a small dab of either on a rag will do to blend the sanded area in with the rest of it.

Yes, it is bedded. Thanks for your suggestions.

Dan

I'm not sure how far it's off with your description of it not shooting as well as expected, but a quick trick to try is to pressure point the end of the forearm like a lot of factory rifles came through except they left a "hump" in the wood barrel channel. A 1/4" thick or so piece of rubber or a folded up small piece of business card for that matter about an inch back from the end of the forearm....just so the barrel has a point to draw up against when the action screws are tightened down. You don't want undo pressure from too thick a piece, but it needs to be good and firm. If it shoots better, than the bedding is where I'd look next.


It is a bit of a detective case sometimes tracking down why a gun isn't doing what it should do. Sometimes it's quick and easy, sometimes not. Hope you get it figured out.
 
ShadeTree":1f86khuj said:
Far as will it hurt to sand out material to match the other side, no. It's what I would do just to make it look nice. Composite stocks would not need sealed. But if you want to hide your dry sanding marks that could be seen when the stock is off, just wipe it with paint thinner or polyurethane on a rag, just a small dab of either on a rag will do to blend the sanded area in with the rest of it.

ShadeTree, your suggestion to use paint thinner worked great. Thank you for the input.

Dan
 
NYDAN":1yjdlrkb said:
ShadeTree":1yjdlrkb said:
Far as will it hurt to sand out material to match the other side, no. It's what I would do just to make it look nice. Composite stocks would not need sealed. But if you want to hide your dry sanding marks that could be seen when the stock is off, just wipe it with paint thinner or polyurethane on a rag, just a small dab of either on a rag will do to blend the sanded area in with the rest of it.

ShadeTree, your suggestion to use paint thinner worked great. Thank you for the input.

Dan

Yepper, glad to help. It's a trick I discovered long ago on things that have nothing to do with guns. Basically anything plastic or resin based, paint thinner will microscopically flow and melt together the plastic on the surface, so you don't have that dry look that shows your work.
 
How is it shooting and what are your expectations? Is it a heavy rig or more of a carry rig?
 
Usually if I have a forearm that isn't centered, I use black electrical tape near the forend to make the barrel is centered for the clearance I want. Then I will hog out the material at the recoil lug and tank to make sure it naturally lays centered in the barrel channel and rebed the recoil lug. That should hold it evenly throughout once you take the tape off.

I look for a minimum of a dollar bill folded in half clearance all the way back to the recoil lug. If it snags anywhere I keep sanding. Also, I use blue painters tape (waxed) on the barrel and Marine Tex or whatever epoxy you like to fill that barrel channel in and create that nice, even gap on both sides of the barrel. For the B&C stocks I like a little more clearance than a McMillan just cause they are a bit floppier, so it gives them a bit more breathing room.

A couple piece of credit card or business cards under the chamber area will create enough float to test it out and see if it is a bedding issue or not. Hard to beat the test for just about free. You can do the same thing with cards as ST mentioned in the forend to see if it prefers some forend pressure. I'd check it free floated first, then with forend pressure.
 
One of my first questions would have been; Are your groups stringing? Or are they a shotgun pattern?

A horizontal stringing may indicate barrel bedding issues, while vertical stringing may indicate action crew torque inconsistencies. (Have you checked the action bolts?)

Does it do it only with the load you are hoping to use? Or does it do it consistently with a variety of loads or ammo?

I do understand your dislike of poor fit of the barrel in the stock's barrel channel, and concern that it may be the issue. Have had the same on a few rifles over the years. On those that shot well consistently, I didn't worry about it. On others, I took the necessary steps to correct the issue until they shot well.

While composite stocks are fairly stiff, as mentioned above, the B&C stocks are not as stiff as stocks from other manufacturers, and can flex more during the shot of the rifle than others, causing pressure issues. The gaps as mentioned above should be fine. But, as mentioned above, your rifle may prefer to have a pressure point near the front of the forearm to make it shoot better. This may help keep the stock flex during the shot from affecting your accuracy.
 
I’m of the camp that believes a really good bedding job is definitely an improvement, but I’ve never seen huge improvements. If you’ve got an honest MOA gun, it will still probably be an honest MOA gun. The improvements won’t be all that great for a hunting type gun. If you have a 3 MOA gun, chances are you’ll still have something along the same lines. The difference in my opinion is that the group POI will probably not wonder too much between range sessions with a good bedding job.

When it’s benchrest and we’re measuring to the .001, a perfect bedding job will show up.

There are always exceptions and other experiences. These have been mine after 30 years of fooling with them. I’ve got a few that benchrest gunsmiths have stocked, ones I’ve stocked, and factory. A good one is a good one and whatever juju it is that makes them work is always hard to pin down. It’s almost always a barrel issue in the end. Heck, sometimes taking an inch off of one totally turns it around.
 
gbflyer":2sxh7q7g said:
I’m of the camp that believes a really good bedding job is definitely an improvement, but I’ve never seen huge improvements. If you’ve got an honest MOA gun, it will still probably be an honest MOA gun. The improvements won’t be all that great for a hunting type gun. If you have a 3 MOA gun, chances are you’ll still have something along the same lines. The difference in my opinion is that the group POI will probably not wonder too much between range sessions with a good bedding job.

When it’s benchrest and we’re measuring to the .001, a perfect bedding job will show up.

There are always exceptions and other experiences. These have been mine after 30 years of fooling with them. I’ve got a few that benchrest gunsmiths have stocked, ones I’ve stocked, and factory. A good one is a good one and whatever juju it is that makes them work is always hard to pin down. It’s almost always a barrel issue in the end. Heck, sometimes taking an inch off of one totally turns it around.


Could not agree more with your first paragraph. Exactly what I've found and my thoughts on bedding. It's generally worth it and an improvement, but if you're looking to fix a 3" rifle, that likely isn't it. Heck my best shooting rifle hands down, is a wood stocked model 70 without a stitch of bedding in it. If you don't mind double checking zero at opposite ends of the temperature extremes, other than that there's not another rifle I own that can hang with it. It just came through as a good one.

The exception to that would be a synthetic stock with too much flex that's free floated and not bedded. In those cases all bets are off.
 
Hi guys,

Thank you for all the interest in this rifle. This was originally from the Remington custom shop which I purchased at Cabelas. It is a left handed 270 Win. The rifle used to shoot very well and I had previously posted some good groups on this forum. However, the rubberized coating on the stock got very sticky. I contacted Bell & Carlson and they told me that happened to those stocks when they aged. They told me to send the stock back and they would refinish the stock.

When I got the stock back I didn't even think it was teh same stock. The interior was different. When I call them about it they told me that in order to refinish the stock they had to mask off the bedding. But since Remington used a very good release agent when they bedded the stock that tape wouldn't stick to it anymore. So, they SANDED THE BEDDING so the tape would stick to it. That is why it looked different the serial number and other info written in the barrel channel was all sanded away.

Well, I never got to shoot right after that and Bell and Carlson wouldn't respond to my calls anymore. By then, I noticed that I had eroded the rifling back significantly. I either needed to have the barrel set back or get it rebarreled. Since I wanted a faster twist to shoot the 150 ABLR's. I decided to get a new 1:9" twist barrel and have the action rebedded. I talked to a local gunsmith and he ordered a Hart barrel with a 1:9" twist with the original Remington profile. he chambered, cut, crowned and attached to the receiver. He lapped the bolt lugs (I didn't ask for that) and rebedded the action.

Once I got it back I was not happy with it. It has such a long thoat that I can barely get enough bullet in the neck to work with the bullet jumps, particularily the 150 ABLR with the long boat tail. It has more jump than the old barrel we took off. I am loading COAL of up to 3.44".

The barrel is not centered in the forearm and I don't like the way the crown looks. It is a recessed target crown but there is a chamfer at the end of bore. All the other recessed target crowns I have seen have a sharp edge where the bore exits.

I shot 150 ABLR's with bullet jumps of .070", .085", .090", .100", .110" and .120" and didn't get one good group.

I shot 150 Partitions with bullet jumps of .040", .050", .060", and .065". The group with a jump of .060" was about .85" but I think it is just a statistical fluke. The groups with jumps of .050" and .065" on either side of it were 2" groups.

I have gotten a coule of promising groups with the 150 BT and the 140 AB. But I will have to play with the bullet jumps with those to tune them in.

I am serously thinking about driving down to Hart Rifles and have them set the barrel back one turn, rechamber with a shorter throat, and recrown the rifle.

It is pretty discouraging to have all of this work done and have it not shoot.

Dan
 
Dan,
It might be worth having a discussion with Rob Canze
at Williams Gun Sight in Davison, MI.
Rob has built shooters for a few fellas here and he
rebarreling my 338 RUM now. He knows
how to make them shoot.

JD338
 
Does this barrel crown look correct? I never saw one with the chamfer like this.

IMG_5069.JPG

IMG_5070.JPG

IMG_5060.JPG
 
Looks fine to me Dan. I’ve had a few that we’re done like that. I can’t tell from the picture but if it looks clean and does t snag cotton of a q tip it’s probably fine.
 
Not at all odd. This particular crown is relatively common on many newer rifles. I have it on several of my personal rifles. As Scotty said, if it doesn't snag the cotton of a Q-Tip, it should serve you well.
 
Using a piloted 60 degree center tool in the crown is very common. Use a little light cutting oil and advance .010. Makes a very nice crown. If there was much of a burr left, it got shot off the first trigger pull most likely.

The action work you describe is common, however I am not so sure I’m sold on it. A person goes to great lengths to lap lugs, being careful not to overlap as to effect primary extraction. So you get it lapped in perfectly, then you put the trigger/bolt shroud back in which lifts the rear of the bolt because there is ample bolt to receiver clearance in a hunting gun or one grain of sand will stop the show. Now your fit is no longer perfect. I’m not sure what we achieve in doing this. A lot of these things get done because that’s the way Grandpa did it.

I’d bet on 2 things: scope/mount issue or a barrel issue. Change scope, check mounts. Don’t give up on the barrel until you get 200 rounds through it. It might take that long to come to life and iron out the throat. If it’s still a dud, give Karen a call at Hart. They will take care of it if it’s on them.
 
If a premium barrel won’t shoot well with reasonable ammunition right outta the gate I will start questioning the barrel and scope right outta the gate. Premium barrels shouldn’t have to be shot “in” to produce from the get go.

I know Dan loads amazing ammo, so I’d be pretty skeptical myself.
 
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