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 Post subject: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 5:30 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: MI
Hi,

I just acquired a set of 20 moa Talley rings for a Sauer 100 rifle which uses Rem 700 rings. When changing over from 0 moa to the 20 moa rings, I had to move the crosshairs down. I was expecting to move the crosshairs up, due to the scope being angled down - https://warnescopemounts.com/wp-content ... 24x562.jpg

Can someone please let me know if the crosshairs moving down is correct when adding A 20 moa rail / rings? If my assumption was correct, what do I check before making phone calls? Orientation looks good, arrows point to the muzzle, and the 20 moa back base is taller than the 0 moa back base... Scope was zeroed at 100 yards at its mechanical zero in the 0 moa Tally rings, so the receiver I think is fine.

Thank you.


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 Post subject: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:20 am
Posts: 2493
Location: Anchorage AK
20 moa rings are used to gain more elevation correction. The amount you just corrected down is the amount you gained. you now have more room to dial up at longer ranges. If you had to move the crosshairs up you would be losing the amount you can move up for longer ranges.

Just look at your picture, the scope remains the same, the rifle now shoots 20 moa higher, so you have to adjust the scope down the 20 moa to be zeroed again.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: MI
Still having a tough time with this.

Bullet impacted 23" or so low at 100 yards, was expecting bullet to hit high. Crosshairs moved down, bullet hits higher... Rather than reley on the turret markings, I pay attention to and move crosshairs. I have had turrets work in reverse. Ir seems that I lost 20 moa rather than gained it.


Last edited by Nimrod84 on Sun May 17, 2020 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 1321
Typically if using 20 MOA rings, you are doing a 300yd zero too.
Not 100.

Normal scopes and normal rings run out of elevation about 500-600yards. The 20 MOA mounts give you more room to 900-1000 assuming you have a cartridge that can do that poke.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:43 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 1321
Your scope can move about 40MOA.
Normal rings 0moa, would be roughly 20moa over and 20 MOA under on the 100 zero. That only give 20 MOA of elevation potential. Add the 20moa under your scope and you have to come down 20 MOA. Now you can travel up 40 MOA.

Just another way to say what bear said.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:45 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: MI
Planning on my standard 250 yard zero. Have access to a 500 yard and 980-1280 yard range and am currently playing with a 6.5 Creedmoor. Trying to get the bugs worked out before making a 4hr drive to the long range. My 280 AI and M1's are a hoot up their.


Last edited by Nimrod84 on Sun May 17, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: MI
Scope has 70 moa range, usable is about 60. When using 0 moa, the 30 is insuffient to barely feasible for 1000 yards with the 20" 6.5 Creed I am playing with. Issue is the 20 moa rings moved bullet impact down, I was expecting bullet impact up. Everything I have read says bullet should impact higher than before due to scope being angled down.

I appreciate the help, would like some real world experience to say if my experience is normal or not. If not normal I need to call Talley. If I am backwards than I need edumacating.


Last edited by Nimrod84 on Sun May 17, 2020 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:20 am
Posts: 2493
Location: Anchorage AK
Are you sure you didn’t swap them and put the wrong one in the back


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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 8:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: MI
Pretty sure. Long action Rem 700 base hole lengths are different.

I did check that screw holes were correct, longer in front and shorter spacing in the rear. I wanted to rule out a receiver issue.

Bases have arrows pointing to the muzzle and installed looks like the photos. I did take the scope off and verify everything mentioned. Rear 20 moa base is taller than the 0 moa base... Remounted the 0 moa bases and scope was giving a poa about 4" higher at 18 yards (basement).

Mounts are https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1781381814/. They advertise -
Arrows are engraved inside the ring to point toward muzzle.

Again, I do appreciate the help.

Editing for spelling, am on auto corkboard... I mean phone...


Last edited by Nimrod84 on Mon May 18, 2020 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:25 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: MI
It was suggested that I shoot it at 175-200 yards and see where the bullet impact. If the impact is lower than the 100 yard impact, than I have a mechanical issue. If the impact is higher at 175-200 yards, than I'm getting an education.

Base height data looks fine to me, expecting a 0.3-0.35 height difference in the rear base - data is a bit rough due to curvature of the rings...
20 MOA 0 MOA
0.4 Front 0.4
0.54 Rear 0.515

Scope screw distances
Front about 0.87
Back about 0.6


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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:08 pm
Posts: 20178
Location: Cedar Springs, MI
It's correct. The rings tilted the scope up 20" at 100 yards. Now you need to dial it down 20" to get it back to where it was or where you want it.

JD338

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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:24 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: MI
JD338, do you mean scope angled down?

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

It still seems backwards to me - my thought process is as follows:
1. Crosshairs chase bullet impact.
2. Bullets hit low at extended range.
3. So how does moving my crosshairs down at 100 yards help me when I need additional downward crosshair movement as the range lengthens?

What part of my thinking is wrong? I would like to correct my bad thinking.

Hoping to shoot tomorrow morning or Wednesday morning and see how things shake out.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:22 am
Posts: 58
Check out this explanation from Warne ... it may help clear things up:

https://warnescopemounts.com/20moa-explained/


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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: MI
JJS405, thanks. Photo their is where I linked to in my OP.

That page is what I believe is telling me that I have a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 4:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:17 pm
Posts: 107
Basically the 20 mao rail or rings do the following. With zero rings or rails when the scope at set close to its mid points the point of sight is 2” or so over the bore of the rifle. To shoot a one hundred yard zero the scopes visual plane must go lower. By doing this the rifles bore path is pointing slightly up relative to the scope. To shoot further and have the bullets flight path intersect the line of sight of the scope you must elevate the barrel relative to the scope. This is initiated by pointing the scope down. Of course to get further and further ranges where to scopes sight plane intersects the bullets flight path you must keep moving the scope down which on your scopes dials is moving the point of impact up. So if you have a scope with 40 MOA of adjustment 20 moa in each direction from the center. With a zero rail or ring setup the most adjustment down you are getting is 20 moa. If you need 30 moa to get to 1,000 yds you run out of you ability to point down to elevate the flight path of the bullet so that intersects the scopes line of sight. When you put the 20 moa rings on it by default point the scope down 20 moa. So if we’re on a zero moa rail and you go to a 20 moa rail the bullet would hit 20 moa high at 100 yds. Because you now elevating the bullet’s path by that amount. To adjust you are going to move the point of impact down relative to the turrets. This is moving the elevation of the barrel up. In this case you are going to use the entire range of the scopes total adjustment to just get it close to zero. In which case you probably will be limited to a 300 yds zero. You simply can not get the impact point to move down far enough. But now you can use the full 40 moa adjustment of the scope to reach extreme ranges which require more elevations. So say you had a ring set up that have you a 100 yd zero. If you put on a 20 moa ring set the rifle is now pointing down 20 moa. The gun will shoot high really high in which case you might have a 1,000 yd zero depending on you cartridge. So you are going to have to turn your turrets point of impact down to bring it back to a reasonable zero. This confused the hell out of me as well. Just realize turrets adjustment are point of impact adjustments. The direction it Is moving the line of sight from the rifles bore is the opposite of point impact.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not understanding 20 MOA rings
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:32 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: MI
Thanks for the help.

I called Talley while at the range this morning. After explaining my issue the rep said that it was not working as designed. I was on the phone for about 25 minutes with the rep and he had me run through a bunch of measurements and level checks. All measurements looked good, level checks were so-so and nothing was obiously out of place. Even so, I was instructed to send the rings back for an inspection. I told him that I would send the rings in after I tried a different scope.

I was thinking that if the rings aren't the issue than I might have damaged or messed up the scope while swapping rings. A new scope fixed the issue, I have about 8-10 MOA extra downward adjustment range now. Scope went wonky or I damaged it.

Thanks again guys.


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