30-06 and the 300WSM Revisited

[bullet]

As many things we debate there has been an on going debate over the 30-06 vs the 300WSM. First they are both very good but I believe one is better and the other is not needed unless you just like being different and trying something new and don't want a 100 plus year old cartridge.

When the 300WSM first came out I decided to get a Browning A-Bolt but waited a while and then took the leap and topped it with a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40mm.

Good looking rig, felt good in my hands, pretty fat short cartridge with all kinds of promises behind this cartridge in the Magazines and media. So I said to myself, "this ought to be some humdinger of a round especially after I develope a load for my rifle that it really likes.

Well the process started and I began to work up loads some bullets and powder worked well and as expected some did not and then a few loads showed excellent promise. I really tweaked my load an a 165gr bullet was giving me consistent 3/4' - just at a 1/2". Now this took a great deal of powder, time, much less money and moments when I thought I would give up and I am one who has loaded for a long time.

During this time I had broken my chrony and it was not working right so I bought a brand new one and that is when I was absolutely surprised to say the least. When I put factory ammo through my rifle I was not getting the accuracy on a consistent bases as I was getting with my hand loads. But my hand loads on the other hand were not getting near the velocity of the factory load even though I was at the charge limit of the powders I was using to get accuracy.

In short my 30-06 in my Mark V was not only way more accurate over 9 three shot groups than the 300WSM but was faster than my hand loads out of my 300WSM. Not only that my 30-06 hand loads 60gr IMR4350 was doing 3060fps and was right there with the factory ammo of the 300WSM.

The 30-06 is easier to load for, uses less powder to get there and was more accurate and I have many more bullet choices than the 300WSM especially with the heavier bullets. I can find factory ammo for the 30-06 any where ammo is sold and in more variety than colors in a crayon box. I the 300WSM a good cartridge? YES!! Does it really bring something new to the table? NO!!! Does it even fill a vacant space? NO!! Is it better than the 100 plus year old 30-06? NO!!!! Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Some things are just good from the beginning, they always are good, and they improve with time due to technology and the 30-06 is that very cartridge. When you put it in new modern designed rifles with new steel and add the new powders, primers and bullets to choose from the 300WSM really in my opinion (and I said my opinion) is not any thing new nor a replacement of any thing either.

 

[Guy Miner]

Interesting - good write up.

My .300 WSM was purchased specifically as a longer-range hunting rifle, replacing the .300 Win mag & 7mm Rem mag that had gone before it.

I've had the same .30-06 for a whole lot of years and see it as a great general purpose hunting rifle/cartridge.

Your .30-06 produces 3000 fps with a 165 gr bullet? Wow - that's excellent! Mine makes about 2750 with my favorite loads, but they're under max. Don't know what it could be pushed to. Have only a 21" barrel on my rifle.

The .300 WSM on the other hand is producing:
210 gr bullet @ 2815 fps - excellent LR load
180 gr bullet @ 3012 fps
165 gr bullet @ 3100 - 3200 fps (haven't settled on a load)

The 210's have been very accurate, shooting about 1.5" groups at 300 yards. Other bullets have also shot well, but few that well. My .300 WSM has a 24" barrel.

My ol' buddy "Lefty" doesn't show up and post here often, but he's the one who talked me into trying the 200+ grain bullets from the .300 WSM. He's been loading his with 200 grain Noslers and doing quite well with them afield. I've got a box of 200 grain partitions sitting here that I "need" to work with...

Regards, Guy

 

[FOTIS]

In my experience the 300 WSM is more powerful than the 30-06.
The most I have been able to get out of a 30-06 is 2950 from a 150 BT with H4350.
I do think that both are excellent rounds, the 06 being the American classic. Again pending on the type of hunting one does you might not be able to tell the diff between a 30-30 and a 300 WBY if your shots are 100 yard max.....per se .
Do we need the 300 WSM when we have the 3oo Win? probably not just like we do not need the 7mm and 270 WSM since we have the 7mm rem mag and 270 Wby.
That said, I do love variety. So the more the merrier.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Guy, that 210 grain load looks like a real slugger. 8)

Bullet, you were comparing a Weatherby to a Browning....is that really fair?


I have yet to shoot a WSM, but over time, the concept is becoming more intriging. I'm just frustrated with Winchester. They seem bent on pushing the WSM's and neglecting the classic caliber that was have all grown to know and love.

 

[Guy Miner]

You know though - I'm 52 now and have hunted since grade school. Didn't do much hunting except for varmints and birds while I had a career in the military, but have tried to play catch up ever since.

When I was a teenager Dad used to let me shoot his ol' .30-06 1917 "Enfield" a lot. I've still got that rifle - it's in a B&C stock now, and long since scoped with a 4x Leupold. Very simple, good old rifle.

I can't think of a single head of game I've taken that I couldn't have taken with that old rifle and a good load... All of the other rifles I've used over the years have been interesting - but in real hunting situations none of them really did anything that the ol' .30-06 couldn't do...

Please don't tell my wife that! :shock: I've spent years convincing her that I "NEED" more hunting rifles... :grin:

 

[bullet]

You know though - I'm 52 now and have hunted since grade school. Didn't do much hunting except for varmints and birds while I had a career in the military, but have tried to play catch up ever since.

When I was a teenager Dad used to let me shoot his ol' .30-06 1917 "Enfield" a lot. I've still got that rifle - it's in a B&C stock now, and long since scoped with a 4x Leupold. Very simple, good old rifle.

I can't think of a single head of game I've taken that I couldn't have taken with that old rifle and a good load... All of the other rifles I've used over the years have been interesting - but in real hunting situations none of them really did anything that the ol' .30-06 couldn't do...

Please don't tell my wife that! :shock: I've spent years convincing her that I "NEED" more hunting rifles... :grin:

Guy I surely won't mention it to your wife if you don't mention to mine that I don't need all the rifles I have accumulated and pretend I need. Hey, I like that 210 gr bullet idea for the 300WSM, might get my Son-in-law to try it. AntelopeSniper, I know it is unfair to compare the 24" Mark V to the Browning :lol: :lol:

 

[Big Squeeze]

Good post there Bullet...............As I have read about the experiences of others and spoken to more in person, it is clear that each rifle with its own individual characteristics, can make a big difference in velocity and accuracy. It is up to us as reloaders to fine tune loads to our individual rifles which will or may not work in other rifles.

Your particular 300 WSM Browning perhaps was a little more tempermental or finniky than some other 300 WSM Browning. I have read where a 257 Wby owner couldn`t get his rifle to group with factory ammo to save his rear. Weatherby gave him a new one.

Other posters on here have had accuracy problems with their `06 using certain powders and bullets after which, by either changing the charge, the powder, the bullet or a combo of one, two or all three, gain much better accuracy.

Each rifle and caliber has its own individual favorite little goodies that it likes in charge weights, powders, bullets, seating depths and OAL`s. The 30-06 in any rifle is no exception. Sure! There are barrel bedding and accurizing methods and so on, but still, the combos and goodies for each individual rifle still need to be found. This is true with any rifle chambered in `06, 300 mag, 7mm, 8mm, 338, 270, 22, 25 caliber, 35 caliber, 375, 416, 458,,you name it.

A round is as only as good as the rifle, the reloader and the shooter.

The 300 WSM wasn`t designed to outsell, overcome, de-throne, make better or remove the `ol `06 or even the 300 Win. It was designed in order to offer to the hunter/shooter, other alternatives, such as a shorter action, in lighter and in some cases shorter rifles, while still maintaing as best as possible about the same overall performance.

And because of modern day powders and new technology within them, this allows a 300 WSM owner, like me with a short barrel or any other 300 WSM owner, to more than compete handily with the longer chamberings and longer barrels.

Aside from the cartridge itself, type of rifle and hunting style to ones preferences also need further consideration. In the more compact rifles and shorter barrels, the 300 WSM as is designed, excels and can do what the `06 cannot do.

That is, capable of outstanding velocities with accuracy as good, ONCE the fine tuning is done of course with each individual rifle.

With my 300 WSM compact, I`ve duplicated 26" 30-06 Ackley Improved ballistics from 150 gr bullets to 200 gr bullets and have achieved great accuracy. This allows me to carry around a rifle that is only 35.5" long, that is lighter than average, which is very handy, very fast, while still very capable of thwarting any N/A big game. I will gladly take a loss of 3.5% to 4.5% in overall velocity to then gain a smaller, much handier rifle in a shorter package, while still capable of downing any bull elk at 500 yards.

In my case anyway, this is what the 300 WSM offered me, which cannot be said for the `06. You cannot fire a 30-06 from a 16.5" barrel with any bullet and be able to get the velocities that the 300 WSM can give. Although the `06 can be fired from shorter tubes, it wasn`t designed specifically for shorter tubes.

That is where the 300 WSM excels. Not only for its design, but for the rifles chambered for it, which also include the compacts.

 

[old #7]

In my experience the 300 WSM is more powerful than the 30-06.
The most I have been able to get out of a 30-06 is 2950 from a 150 BT with H4350.
I do think that both are excellent rounds, the 06 being the American classic. Again pending on the type of hunting one does you might not be able to tell the diff between a 30-30 and a 300 WBY if your shots are 100 yard max.....per se .
Do we need the 300 WSM when we have the 3oo Win? probably not just like we do not need the 7mm and 270 WSM since we have the 7mm rem mag and 270 Wby.
That said, I do love variety. So the more the merrier.

+1 on variety.
If you have an accurate 30-06 and want a little more out of it have it AI'd.
But do it after you buy the 300 in wsm, win mag, rem mag or weatherby mag.

 

[bullet]

One thing for sure when you look at the cartridges that make up the 30 Cal cartridges they truly are very versatile and effective. I would have to say that my favorite cal is the .308 line of cartridges. I like the 308, 30-06, 300Win, 300Wby and I even like the 300H&H along with the 300Rum.

Do you think if I had a M48 in 300WSM I might even begin to really like the 300WSM?? :lol: :lol: There is a strong possibility of that being the case.

Why? Well I have a Mark V Custom in 30-06 that is extremely accurate and I have a Mark V Custom in 300Wby that is extremely accurate and what I am missing in the 30 cal line is something along the lines of a hand loaded 300H&H or a 300Win that is in a light very accurate package. I have been doing some thinking and as much as I like a 30-06 and would like one in an M48 I would be torn between the M48 in 06 and my Mark V Custom in 06.

Frankly I think this thread might begin to be a little expensive for me if I continue to think this way. Let me stop at the moment and think for a while. :idea: :idea: :idea:

PS good thoughts old#7 and Big Squeeze

 

[Big Squeeze]

One thing for sure when you look at the cartridges that make up the 30 Cal cartridges they truly are very versatile and effective. I would have to say that my favorite cal is the .308 line of cartridges. I like the 308, 30-06, 300Win, 300Wby and I even like the 300H&H along with the 300Rum.

Do you think if I had a M48 in 300WSM I might even begin to really like the 300WSM?? :lol: :lol: There is a strong possibility of that being the case.

Why? Well I have a Mark V Custom in 30-06 that is extremely accurate and I have a Mark V Custom in 300Wby that is extremely accurate and what I am missing in the 30 cal line is something along the lines of a hand loaded 300H&H or a 300Win that is in a light very accurate package. I have been doing some thinking and as much as I like a 30-06 and would like one in an M48 I would be torn between the M48 in 06 and my Mark V Custom in 06.

Frankly I think this thread might begin to be a little expensive for me if I continue to think this way. Let me stop at the moment and think for a while. :idea: :idea: :idea:

PS good thoughts old#7 and Big Squeeze

.............With the `06 and 300 WBY (have a 300 Wby?), you already have, buying an M48 in a 300 WSM imo, is a waste of money! Nothing really to be gained there.

 

[bullet]

One thing for sure when you look at the cartridges that make up the 30 Cal cartridges they truly are very versatile and effective. I would have to say that my favorite cal is the .308 line of cartridges. I like the 308, 30-06, 300Win, 300Wby and I even like the 300H&H along with the 300Rum.

Do you think if I had a M48 in 300WSM I might even begin to really like the 300WSM?? :lol: :lol: There is a strong possibility of that being the case.

Why? Well I have a Mark V Custom in 30-06 that is extremely accurate and I have a Mark V Custom in 300Wby that is extremely accurate and what I am missing in the 30 cal line is something along the lines of a hand loaded 300H&H or a 300Win that is in a light very accurate package. I have been doing some thinking and as much as I like a 30-06 and would like one in an M48 I would be torn between the M48 in 06 and my Mark V Custom in 06.



Frankly I think this thread might begin to be a little expensive for me if I continue to think this way. Let me stop at the moment and think for a while. :idea: :idea: :idea:

PS good thoughts old#7 and Big Squeeze

.............With the `06 and 300 WBY (have a 300 Wby?), you already have, buying an M48 in a 300 WSM imo, is a waste of money! Nothing really to be gained there.

OK, which cartridge would you buy in the M48 if you had what I have mentioned above. Would you purchase a 270WSM, 325WSM, or 7mm08??

PS Yes I have a 300Wby Cusom

 

[bullet]

Of the shorter cartridges in the M48 I lean toward the 7mm08. I wonder when they will introduce it in the longer action and that brings into play the 280 AI. I think I would like the M48 maybe in 6.5-284. Guess I am getting in the mood to buy a M48. 8)

 

[Big Squeeze]

I`go with the 270 WSM. The 7mm is a little too close to the 30`s. The 270 WSM is an excellent N/A plains game, flat shooting cartridge from smaller varmits up to and including elk and a moose or two!

The 325 WSM, though not as popular as the 300 or 270 WSM`s really isn`t going anywhere imo.

Depends on your use!

 

[Big Squeeze]

Or get maybe a medium range fun gun? Going into the swamps and thicker areas where you fell off the log pile, is not exactly ideal for a full sized Weatherby rifle with a 4.5 x14 scope or with even a 3x9.

Your `06 and 300 will cover anything a 270 or a 7mm can do. Your new 450 Guide Gun is a short range bigger game buster which can still be used for deer.

For medium range however, what you had in the Remy 7 is more ideal for the swampy and/or thicker stuff.

Why not consider a fun carbine, like the Ruger Frontier Target Grey stainless with the 16.5" barrel chambered in the 338 Federal or the 358 Win. All new M77 Rugers, `07 and newer, including my Alaskan, have the new LC6 re-designed triggers. They are very sweet!

Put yourself on a fast acquiring and fast aiming low powered variable scope like a 1-4x20 VX2 or a 1.5-5x20 VX3. You can also mount a scout scope too! You can mount a scope in both positions on the Frontier.

I`m telling ya from alot of personal experience. Once you go out with one these into the timbers and thickets, you won`t want to use anything else in that kind of terrain. Only 35.5" long and with a lite scope, you`ll keep the weight down to around 7.5 lbs or maybe less. There is no better handling bolt rifle on the market quite like the Ruger Frontier. I`ve handled alot of compacts and it even nails the Remy 7 in that dept.

Just like all Frontiers in any cartridge, mine included, the total velocity loss is about 4% vs barrels that are 24" or 31% longer. This would be an excellent fun carbine rifle that is easy carrying, is very fast handling and ideal for short to medium ranges out to about 250 yards for deer, elk, black bears and moose.

You already have the full sized long range sleds. How about something that`s alot of fun, about 10" shorter and alot cheaper than a M48?

I reload for a friend who has the 338 Federal in a Frontier. We go hog hunting together with our Frontiers. What a sweetheart that cartridge and rifle combo is! He`s already bagged a bull moose with it and it`s also quite a hog thumper too, as I have witnessed first hand!

 

[YoteSmoker]

Big Squeeze, do you work for Ruger?

 

[bullet]

Big Squeeze, do you work for Ruger?

No YoteSmoker he does not but I think they ought to hire him or at least give him a little commission every once in a while. :lol: :lol:

Thanks BigSqueeze for taking the time to engage my notions. :grin:

 

[Big Squeeze]

Big Squeeze, do you work for Ruger?

....................NO, I do not!......... But, I do give credit, where credit is certainly due. In Bullet`s case, he may want to consider a powerful yet a more compact fun gun too. :idea: The Ruger carbines are exactly that!.........Try a new one out sometime.

Afterall, as was in my case, what other maker can get ya 26" 30-06 AI stats out of a `lil compact, with only a 16.5" tube and just 35.5" long? :lol:

A short stick, but very powerful and accurate! Stays right up there with the big `ol boys!.. :shock:

Too bad Ruger had to discontinue the 300 WSM in the Frontiers....Patent reasons.

 

[Big Squeeze]

Big Squeeze, do you work for Ruger?

No YoteSmoker he does not but I think they ought to hire him or at least give him a little commission every once in a while. :lol: :lol:

Thanks BigSqueeze for taking the time to engage my notions. :grin:

.............Hey! No problem! Just throwing some fun ideas out there.

 

[jtoews80]

I'd take a weatherby over a browning abolt too :grin: I load for my dad's 30-06 wby vanguard. I use mostly winchester brass, 57.0grns IMR 4350, 165 grn Hrndy BTSP(pt#3045, BC .435??) chrono's @ 2820FPS 1MOA load. I haven't really messed with the 300 win too much, still waiting for my brother to test the 180 accubonds I loaded for him and I've never loaded for a wsm or wssm. I have seen a lot of 300 WSM brownings come back on trades around home, PILES of them!! THe biggest complaint is of recoil. So, that great carry weight and handling doesn't come free. That having been said I had a tikka t3 lite ss/syn 300 win mag and it was terribly hard on the shoulder @ 6.375lbs. All those 300wsm's around here, heck I should buy a couple and make a 6mmWSM & 6.5mmWSM :twisted: :twisted: My wife would fire me..... :evil:

CC.

 

[Big Squeeze]

I'd take a weatherby over a browning abolt too :grin: I load for my dad's 30-06 wby vanguard. I use mostly winchester brass, 57.0grns IMR 4350, 165 grn Hrndy BTSP(pt#3045, BC .435??) chrono's @ 2820FPS 1MOA load. I haven't really messed with the 300 win too much, still waiting for my brother to test the 180 accubonds I loaded for him and I've never loaded for a wsm or wssm. I have seen a lot of 300 WSM brownings come back on trades around home, PILES of them!! THe biggest complaint is of recoil. So, that great carry weight and handling doesn't come free. That having been said I had a tikka t3 lite ss/syn 300 win mag and it was terribly hard on the shoulder @ 6.375lbs. All those 300wsm's around here, heck I should buy a couple and make a 6mmWSM & 6.5mmWSM :twisted: :twisted: My wife would fire me..... :evil:

CC.

.......................It`s very easy to solve recoil issues. For my compact Ruger 300 WSM, I use the Limbsaver slip on recoil pad! Works great on the bench or when hunting. The thin and hard factory recoil pads from Ruger are not that good. Slip on a Limbsaver and the problem of recoil with any rifle, compacts, featherweights, lighter or otherwise, is for the most part solved. Reduces felt recoil by about 50%.

A $20 Limbsaver, just might have prevented some of those Browning trades ins!!