A partition ballistic tip
- Thread starter boolit
- Start date
- Oct 30, 2004
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Actually at the risk of sounding sarcastic my answer is ...It doesn't.
I have had rifles that hated the ballistic tips (and all boat tails for that matter ) and loved the partitions.
Having said that I will let you in on a little secret. The more complex the construction the bullet is the harder it is to get it to shoot. This statement is not a panacea but I found it to be true more times than not.
This is one of the reasons that cup and core bullets are somewhat easier to get to shoot. Sierra comes to mind.
I have had rifles that hated the ballistic tips (and all boat tails for that matter ) and loved the partitions.
Having said that I will let you in on a little secret. The more complex the construction the bullet is the harder it is to get it to shoot. This statement is not a panacea but I found it to be true more times than not.
This is one of the reasons that cup and core bullets are somewhat easier to get to shoot. Sierra comes to mind.
- Thread starter
- #3
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,419
- 3,419
Well my biggest pet peeve in the hunting world is using matchkings on game. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: When I hear that my stomach turns upside down literally.
Now as far as their regular bullets, I have seen them fail quite a few times. And I am not talking retrieving bullets from dead game and seeing that there was jacket core separation. One time my ex boss shot an antelope buck at 150 yards. He was using a Savage 99 in 308 loaded with IMR 4064 and 150 gr Gamekings. He hit the buck in the ribs. The buck ran a little and then fell over. We found the entire jacket on the hide of the entrance wound! Just a little peeled back to allow the lead core to escape and pretty much disintegrate in the vitals. Granted no harm done but on a small buck? When I called Sierra and asked them about possibly making a premium bullet they said they already do. The Gameking. Just that some of their stuff is too soft in my opinion. On the other hand their 300 gr 375 cal is a beast of a bullet! see here
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13266&p=94281&hilit=sierra+375#p94281
I don't hate Sierra just wish they would better some of their products.
Now as far as their regular bullets, I have seen them fail quite a few times. And I am not talking retrieving bullets from dead game and seeing that there was jacket core separation. One time my ex boss shot an antelope buck at 150 yards. He was using a Savage 99 in 308 loaded with IMR 4064 and 150 gr Gamekings. He hit the buck in the ribs. The buck ran a little and then fell over. We found the entire jacket on the hide of the entrance wound! Just a little peeled back to allow the lead core to escape and pretty much disintegrate in the vitals. Granted no harm done but on a small buck? When I called Sierra and asked them about possibly making a premium bullet they said they already do. The Gameking. Just that some of their stuff is too soft in my opinion. On the other hand their 300 gr 375 cal is a beast of a bullet! see here
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13266&p=94281&hilit=sierra+375#p94281
I don't hate Sierra just wish they would better some of their products.
- Nov 4, 2004
- 25,563
- 9,661
The Nosler PT is an accurate bullet as is the BT. You just need to find the load that your rifle likes.
338 RUM 250 gr PT seconds
280 AI 140 gr BT seconds
Sierra bullets are fine, I have shot several thousand over the years. The Game King is a hunting bullet and the Match King is a target bullet. Some hunters use the Match Kings on game but even Sierrra states that the Match King is a target bullet and is not intended for hunting.
JD338
338 RUM 250 gr PT seconds
280 AI 140 gr BT seconds
Sierra bullets are fine, I have shot several thousand over the years. The Game King is a hunting bullet and the Match King is a target bullet. Some hunters use the Match Kings on game but even Sierrra states that the Match King is a target bullet and is not intended for hunting.
JD338
Desert Fox
Handloader
- Aug 14, 2006
- 1,965
- 3
boolit":sekd3ox5 said:
Both can be very accurate! However, the Ballistic Tip has the edge since it was designed with accuracy in mind whereas the Partition was designed to hold together on impact. The Ballistic Tip also had the added benefit of boat tail design, and a plastic tip that pierced the wind more efficiently. These features doesn't necessarily translate to better accuracy. But what it does is it increase bullet BC which resulted in better performance at extended range.
In the bullet analysis that recently summarized the Game king and several other bullets faired poorly for penetration and weight retention. truly love it when I shoot a .300 group with my 300 win mag or a similar with my STW, but those ittty bitty groups are not necessary for hunting. The most accurate bullet in my Win Mag is the 180 gr. Sierra BT, do I use that for huunting "not" I use the 180 PT. My rifle does not shoot the PT as well but it shoots 1-1.5 inch groups consistently. Thats all you need for most big game shooting. If you can shoot a 1 1/2 group at 100 yards thats a 5 1/2 inch group at 400 yards. The kill zone on a deer is about the size of a 6 inch diameter plate and twice that on an elk. I like them little groups also but I also like good venison better and the bettter the bullet the better the outcome.
Last Monday in Wyoming I killed a nice spike bull elk, he was just shy of 400 yards on the first shot, and on the other side of 400 yards on the last. At the first shot he was standing and steped forward at the exact time or a milisecond prior to the sear falling and allowing the 180 gr. Nosler to get on its way. The result was a low hit (I underestimated the hold, no time for range calculations) and I hit low midway back. The PT went through about 2 1/2 feet of elk and broke the off rear leg between the elbow and the first joint and exited. For those whom have shot several elk you know that this really did not make me happy nor did it make much of an impression on the elk. As he was trotting on across the glacier I tried a couple of shots that were called high and back by my friend and cow caller. After a series of cow calls he stopped to look where we were and I smacked him about 20 inches behind the shoulders and midway up the body. That shot made a distinct impression on him and his pace slowed considerably. He then continued walking toward the timberline and the jungle behind it (we were in there the day before) as he closed on the tree line he stopped (quartering away, like a big mule deer buck ) looking back and I held high on the front shoulders and at the report of the rifle he collasped on that spot. I believe that a hunter with a much smaller cartridge and less heavly constructed bullet may have had a problem recovering that elk. Even at 438 yards the 180 PT keep sailing right on through leaving blood, chunks of ribs and sign that my 100 year old mother could follow. I have been in that same or similar situations mumerous times and this cartridge/bullet combination has come through.
I know that I am a little bit off of the subject but I think experience is worth mentioning as I did 15 or so times earlier, elk are tough hard to stop once they get there legs under them and require, energy, and a good bullet that will make a leak hole for successful recovery. Thats my .02 :grin:
Last Monday in Wyoming I killed a nice spike bull elk, he was just shy of 400 yards on the first shot, and on the other side of 400 yards on the last. At the first shot he was standing and steped forward at the exact time or a milisecond prior to the sear falling and allowing the 180 gr. Nosler to get on its way. The result was a low hit (I underestimated the hold, no time for range calculations) and I hit low midway back. The PT went through about 2 1/2 feet of elk and broke the off rear leg between the elbow and the first joint and exited. For those whom have shot several elk you know that this really did not make me happy nor did it make much of an impression on the elk. As he was trotting on across the glacier I tried a couple of shots that were called high and back by my friend and cow caller. After a series of cow calls he stopped to look where we were and I smacked him about 20 inches behind the shoulders and midway up the body. That shot made a distinct impression on him and his pace slowed considerably. He then continued walking toward the timberline and the jungle behind it (we were in there the day before) as he closed on the tree line he stopped (quartering away, like a big mule deer buck ) looking back and I held high on the front shoulders and at the report of the rifle he collasped on that spot. I believe that a hunter with a much smaller cartridge and less heavly constructed bullet may have had a problem recovering that elk. Even at 438 yards the 180 PT keep sailing right on through leaving blood, chunks of ribs and sign that my 100 year old mother could follow. I have been in that same or similar situations mumerous times and this cartridge/bullet combination has come through.
I know that I am a little bit off of the subject but I think experience is worth mentioning as I did 15 or so times earlier, elk are tough hard to stop once they get there legs under them and require, energy, and a good bullet that will make a leak hole for successful recovery. Thats my .02 :grin:
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,419
- 3,419
Elkman,
Congrats on your elk. Great story too!
Congrats on your elk. Great story too!
I agree with Elkman on the performance. Back to the question and some points:
1) Accuracy and Ballistic Coef. are not the same. I prefer a high BC bullet as I shoot in wind a lot, and some long distances. But, to say that the higher BC = greater accuracy and tighter groups is not really correct. My best .257 load is with a 120 gr PT. I think that the BC of the AB and BT are higher due to the boat-tail and sharp tip. But, BC is not always better accuracy.
2) Weight retention is key on some game, but on others, you want a large shrapnel channel for a quicker kill. Most BT open up a lot and I have never seen a deer run off after being shot with a BT or even a berger. But, with bonded bullets, I have seen deer run a hundred yards after taking a bullet through the heart with a 3/4 inch exit.
3) I try to match the bullet to the game. For instance, I prefer ABs and Partitions on larger game, but on smaller game, I will shoot BTs. But, if I have a dual tag, I am either shooting partitions or ABs. I shoot well enough for good placement at every range that I will take a shot, and prefer to have a lot of penetration, and an exit hole for blood tracking on larger game.
Hardpan
1) Accuracy and Ballistic Coef. are not the same. I prefer a high BC bullet as I shoot in wind a lot, and some long distances. But, to say that the higher BC = greater accuracy and tighter groups is not really correct. My best .257 load is with a 120 gr PT. I think that the BC of the AB and BT are higher due to the boat-tail and sharp tip. But, BC is not always better accuracy.
2) Weight retention is key on some game, but on others, you want a large shrapnel channel for a quicker kill. Most BT open up a lot and I have never seen a deer run off after being shot with a BT or even a berger. But, with bonded bullets, I have seen deer run a hundred yards after taking a bullet through the heart with a 3/4 inch exit.
3) I try to match the bullet to the game. For instance, I prefer ABs and Partitions on larger game, but on smaller game, I will shoot BTs. But, if I have a dual tag, I am either shooting partitions or ABs. I shoot well enough for good placement at every range that I will take a shot, and prefer to have a lot of penetration, and an exit hole for blood tracking on larger game.
Hardpan
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,419
- 3,419
hardpan":3iln0aks said:
That is some very logical thinking there!
Desert Fox
Handloader
- Aug 14, 2006
- 1,965
- 3
VLD's are among the highest Ballistic Coefficient bullet around and they can be very accurate. There's no denying that there is a direct correlation between higher BC and accuracy. As I said in my previous response, both bullet are capable of being accurate. The Ballistic Tip however has the edge in accuracy since the emphasis on the design calls for the bullet to deliver it's payload at extended ranges. The Partition on the other hand was for deep penetration at any impact velocity. In other words, accuracy is only secondary on Partition. So if the question is which bullet is more accurate. The only logical answer is the Ballistic Tip... and yes it has a higher BC too.
- Thread starter
- #12
Chalk one up for Elkman, Hardpan, and Pop
I use the 165 grain Btips for long range application vs the 180 partitions as my staple because they shoot a little flatter, buck the wind a bit better, and at long ranges their penatration is just fine. At long ranges it seems to be a little easier to place them on target. That said from the bench one of my rifles shot the btips better one shots the partitions better. Both are well above what is required for hunting accuracey.
Boolit,
Partitions do not come apart, the front portion will mushroom out quickly but the rest of the bullet stay intact for deep penatration. I dug one out of the off shoulder of a large five point bull(well beyond a rag horn). The bullet destroyed both shoulder blades and scrambled everything in between. The range was only about 75 yards and the bull was laying down when I shot him. That is about as violent of an impact as you can get. The Partition was a text book mushroom minus some of the nose portion but not much. You can not expect more from a bullet. As a side note, The hide on the shoulders of a bull elk is very thick and tough (double that of a cow of the same size) I assume this is an adaptation in minimize open wounds when fighting other elk during the rut. This particular bull was carring some pretty good battle scars despite the heavy hide.
I use the 165 grain Btips for long range application vs the 180 partitions as my staple because they shoot a little flatter, buck the wind a bit better, and at long ranges their penatration is just fine. At long ranges it seems to be a little easier to place them on target. That said from the bench one of my rifles shot the btips better one shots the partitions better. Both are well above what is required for hunting accuracey.
Boolit,
Partitions do not come apart, the front portion will mushroom out quickly but the rest of the bullet stay intact for deep penatration. I dug one out of the off shoulder of a large five point bull(well beyond a rag horn). The bullet destroyed both shoulder blades and scrambled everything in between. The range was only about 75 yards and the bull was laying down when I shot him. That is about as violent of an impact as you can get. The Partition was a text book mushroom minus some of the nose portion but not much. You can not expect more from a bullet. As a side note, The hide on the shoulders of a bull elk is very thick and tough (double that of a cow of the same size) I assume this is an adaptation in minimize open wounds when fighting other elk during the rut. This particular bull was carring some pretty good battle scars despite the heavy hide.
- Thread starter
- #17
Desert Fox":24b38nw9 said:
I don't want to stir up a big brooha here,, but will argue 1 point then point out another.
But first let me say I generally find BT's are easier to find a load for, but PT's can be just as accurate. Likely due to POP's point of construction being more complicated,,,,, NP's are still my favorite hunting bullet.
Now with the the BC's concern,,,, I will say a higher BC makes a round easier to shoot at long range ,,,up to a point, but does not necessarily make it more accurate. It does aid somewhat in wind deflection and velocity retention, but not as much as one would like to think at normal to somewhat longer hunting ranges,,,, but thats all. It's still up to a good load and the person on the trigger.
But BC's sell bullets and all the companies know this, so I suspect,,, they all or most all that I know of use the same methods of computing BC's. I don't know of any that actually shoot time trials any more. May be Nosler can confirm this? I suspect they are all mathmatically computed from a G1.
It matter's none that the published aren't totally accurate, as BC changes in flight and with temp, altitude and more so humidity. For somewhat more accurate numbers, one needs to do the correction, for either a G5 for boattails or G7 for VLD's.(shooting time trials is still the best way).
Where boattails and vld's are really of some help, is at extreme range when the bullet slows and enters the transonic zone,,,,somewhere in the neighborhood of 1400 fps.. Thats out there near and past a 1000 yds for alot of the typical hunting rounds.
If you don't believe this, (not specifically pointed at you DF), load some rounds in the same firearm of the same weight at the same speed using a boattail and flat base of fairly close ogive/point designs and run them over a chrono at 10-15 from the muzzle. if they aren't exactly the same speed it's not critical just make note of the speed using at least a 10 shot aggregate avg. Then shoot another 10 shot string with the chrono at 800 yds., and note the difference in speed of the 2 designs.
I think you will be suprised!!!!
Dave
Just my two pennies, the PT's have been some of the best shooters out there. Granted, I haven't shot a ton of BT's, but I have had accuracy come pretty easy while loading for PT's. The slight increase in BC with the BT doesn't make too much difference as I don't really shoot over 500 yards. Scotty
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
- 2,618
- 0
There are several factors that make the BT''s an accurate bullets design.
As mentioned before, for accuracy, simple is better. Since the BT is a standard cup and core design, it only needs to be extruded once, where the PT must be extruded twice. In the BT, only one core must be seated, where there are two lead cores to seat in the PT. In addition, you must use a conventional point forming die on the PT. A lead formed tip is less accurate then an open tip design. Contrary to popular belief, it's not due to aerodynamics, but the uniformity of the forming process. The tip of the BT is essentially an open tip bullets, holding a plastic tip in place. In addition, the boat tail on the BT is very shallow. This give the benefits of the boat tail, but keeps the base flat to provide the accuracy benefits of a flat base by disrupting to gas wave as it exits the muzzle behind the bullet. In guess INE this is why the BT's shoot more like a match bullet then a hunting bullet.
So why is the BT more accurate?
Simpler jacket design.
Only one core to seat.
Better tip design.
Better base design.
A heavy BT can provide alot of benefits. Low cost, great accuracy, rapid expansionf or initial trauma, and mass for penetration.
As mentioned before, for accuracy, simple is better. Since the BT is a standard cup and core design, it only needs to be extruded once, where the PT must be extruded twice. In the BT, only one core must be seated, where there are two lead cores to seat in the PT. In addition, you must use a conventional point forming die on the PT. A lead formed tip is less accurate then an open tip design. Contrary to popular belief, it's not due to aerodynamics, but the uniformity of the forming process. The tip of the BT is essentially an open tip bullets, holding a plastic tip in place. In addition, the boat tail on the BT is very shallow. This give the benefits of the boat tail, but keeps the base flat to provide the accuracy benefits of a flat base by disrupting to gas wave as it exits the muzzle behind the bullet. In guess INE this is why the BT's shoot more like a match bullet then a hunting bullet.
So why is the BT more accurate?
Simpler jacket design.
Only one core to seat.
Better tip design.
Better base design.
A heavy BT can provide alot of benefits. Low cost, great accuracy, rapid expansionf or initial trauma, and mass for penetration.
