Handloading above book max

[Guest]

Just because I want to know how other folks are doing it, what is your procedure for loading beyond published limits in the various manuals and such? I know how I do things, but I'll refrain from comment until later. What do you do? How big a step at a time? What signs do you look for? What verifications and limits do you use?

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

I load above listed max on a fairly regular basis. In addition, since I use alot of surplus powder and other non-canister powders, sometimes I start with very little data. After 15 years of loading surplus powders, I've been know to use non-listed powders, somethimes to very good effect. Please note, I do not recommend this practice for the new, or carless handloader, and do not expect to see those loads published here.

Back to the Main question, what is the proper way to go over max. The first question I always ask myself is WHY. WHY will this be safe. Imagine you have a 30-30 Winchester chambered in a Remington 700. (I don't know why you would do this, but just imagine). Since Most 30-30 are chambered in realitivly weak leaver actions, the SAMMI max is around 40,000psi, but a Remington model 700 will handle 63000psi with no problems. In this instance I would probably start with the MAX listed load, cross reference other similar cartriges in my books that are typically chambered in bolt action rifles, and work up in 1% increments, one round per load, until I get close to those maximums......and make sure my bullet puller is ready. In addition I would probably use Winchester Primers. Winchester primers are the softest, and puncture the easiest. If all else fails, this is an inescapable sign it's time to back off, and spend some time with the bullet puller.

Sometimes you will see a powder where the listed max load has a listed pressure 10%-20%, below the listed max for other powders, I may be inclined to experiment with these powders above max.

The other important factor to me, is I have a tendancy to use low pressure components. In the .270, I use Winchester Brass, and CCI primers, and nosler bullets. Winchester brass is thin, CCI primers are cold, and nosler bullets have a smaller bearing surface. These factors tend to lower pressures. If the book is listing Remington brass, federal primers, and Sierra bullets, I may be inclined to play above the listed max.

I do not recommend going over max in Weatherby Rifles. Often times you are using a Weatherby Rifle, and Weatherby Brass, and Roy Weatherby we no wimp when it came do developing load data. The same rule apples to any cartrige that appears to be a SAMMI darling. For some reason SAMMI just seams to LIKE some cartriges more then others. For these rounds that SAMMI likes, with stiff maximums already listed, they should be respected.

 

[Britz]

Risky situation

 

[FOTIS]

:mrgreen:

no comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

 

[JD338]

:mrgreen:

no comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

+1

JD338

 

[RMiller]

I look for all the data from every book I can find. I use a caliber specific loadbook so this is easy to do. I also cross reference with stevespages reloading data pages.
Then I start low and work up. I have yet to have to go past those maxes because I usually find the max load somewhere in thier. I also use a chrony so sometimes I see a max load on the chrony before I can recognise it from the brass.

If a powder is consistantly adding 50 FPS with every half grain increment then starts to go down in velocity or just gives smaller gains it may be a max load.

 

[clearwater]

The manuals I've seen warn against hot rodding the 30-30 in bolt
action due to the weak case.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Good catch Clearwater, you are probably correct. 30-30 may have been a bad example. Point is, before you load over max, you should understand why the limits are were they are, and be able to identify why those limits don't apply to your situation, and what your limits should be. If you can't do those things, don't go over max. I may go over limits for a specific cartrige, but not the specific gun I'm shooting it in. If I'm over for a listed powder charge, it's because I'm confident that other factors are in play that will keep my OVERALL pressures within the safe limits.

 

[Guest]

Alright, now I'll clarify a little bit. I have a good bit of experience handloading, and have always been a careful loader, by the book. Of course, that sort of depends on which book you're talking about. So, I generally consult all sources (6 manuals plus various reputable online sources) and try to find some consensus on what to load, and what to expect from it. So in some cases, I am over one book's max, but not over max in another book with the same weight bullet (and sometimes the exact same bullet/brass/primer). I generally don't exceed the 'maximum' published max load for most calibers I load for, but on occasion have chased a velocity I wanted with an extra quarter or half grain, when I could clearly tell the round was not at the bleeding edge by looking at primers, case head diameter, bolt lift, and such.

That's my normal routine. I just wanted to see what other folks are doing. All of this was precipitated by some quickload data that I looked over and some non-expected results (very low velocities) for a rifle that clearly has a longer shoulder (by a couple of millimeters) than minimum spec brass, and appears to have less body taper. It's a belted magnum, so headspace isn't an issue, it just appears to be one of the first chambers reamed by this particular reamer, as it is on the long and wide side when comparing shoulder length of FL-resized brass and once fired brass prior to resizing. So I was considering bumping up a bit on a couple of powders to achieve velocities more in line with the book velocities, as I'm currently getting several hundred fps below book at each listed charge (with two different powders).

 

[tjen]

For cases like the 30-30 that are already loaded by the factory and listed in reloading manuals AT MAX for the case don't do it it is dangerous. And there are all kinds of great loadings for it so It seems to be useless at best.

For cartridges like the 257roberts, 7x57, 35rem, 45-70gov. That may have additional loads listed by different gun designs becase the case is not loaded to its max and in the right gun can be loaded up accordingly. A case in point. Many of us that shoot the 35rem have talked to ballistions that have given out +P loads that are safe for guns like the 336/760/7600 and are still 10% lower then the 30-30wins pressure so there is a high margin of safty and yet no maunel has +P loads for the 35rem. Factory is now about 1930fps not the 2110 listed and the +P loads about 2200fps.

First what is the guns operating pressure? Then talk to the powder company ballistion and what loads they say are safe. Next follow their addvise to the letter! If they say no they mean no! If they won't readaly give that informatiuon out just be wise and stay with listed loads only.

 

[big rifle man]

Sorry guys, the extra 50 to 100fps doesn't turn me on at all. Over a period of time your headspace is going to be affected and not for the better. As I've mentioned before. the companies that put out the manuals have a lot more experience than either you or I do. I guess there any number of us that have to have barn burner speeds but when you look at the end results (in many ways) why do it.

 

[Charlie-NY]

Sorry guys, the extra 50 to 100fps doesn't turn me on at all. Over a period of time your headspace is going to be affected and not for the better. As I've mentioned before. the companies that put out the manuals have a lot more experience than either you or I do. I guess there any number of us that have to have barn burner speeds but when you look at the end results (in many ways) why do it.

Funny, but I'm always looking for velocities that are BELOW maximum. I can always find an accurate load somewhere below the listed maximum and my brass lasts a lot longer.

If for whatever reason I think I really need (want) more power I just move up to a bigger cartridge. Loading over the maximum listed data for any given cartridge is just a practice that I'd rather avoid.

Additionally, very few reloaders have the ability to determine whether they are getting pressures that exceed acceptable standards. 50,000 - 60,000 - 70,000 -who knows? Regular shooting of "hot loads" will likely cause some diminsional chances in your firearm.

I'm not about to fault the guys who do this but it is just not a place for me and I've been handloading for rifle, handgun & shotgun for 30 years.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

This is a classic example where you know something about your specific rifle, the writers for the masses could not know. This is the type of information you may wish to consider while deciding how you will determine the max loads for your rifle. It interesting to me the infailability we attribute to the Manual writes, but we all own 6 Manual :?

Speaking of which, I just got my new Nosler #6 Manual last night.
Most of the data looks dead on :grin:
Some of it is Obsurdly low. :roll:
Some of the data looks, scarry hot. :shock:

But then again, I guess that's why we all own 6 manuals and work up carefully.

 

[steve4102]

I also have a boat load of manuals. I use them all and I use them often. I gather as much data I can so I have some idea of what to expect. I work up in different increments depending on the cartridge capacity. My 300 mags for example will get 1 grain increases for starters and decrease to .5 or .3 when approaching Max. while my 221 Fireball will get .2 to .3gr increases right from the start.

When testing loads I try and determine what is safe and what is not. I use a Chrony, check for loose primer pockets, measure pressure ring expansion, sticky bolt lift, extractor marks. I also bring all of my rifles to what I feel is "Their" max. Once I find max in a particular rifle I know where not to tread. I do not continue to load "Hot", but I do feel I know where "hot" is. It may be above "Book Max' and it may not.