Load Data Request - 450 Marlin, Speer 300 gr. FNHP, H4198

[NYDAN]

None of the reloading data I have is for the exact combination of powder and bullet that I have. I have the Speer 300 gr. Unicor FNHP and H4198 powder. The reload data I have is for that powder with other bullets or that bullet with other powders.

If Quickload has that combination, I would appreciate it if someone would run profiles for me with both the H4198 and the IMR4198 powders. The Hornady manual suggests that those powders are very similar.

Thank you.

 

[SJB358]

Dan if you would give us the H20 capacity of a couple fired cases I could run a little more specific data.

 

[SJB358]

Here is a general look at it.

Cartridge : .450 Marlin
Bullet : .458, 300, Speer JHP 2482
Useable Case Capaci: 59.102 grain H2O = 3.837 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.550 inch = 64.77 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4198

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 80 40.93 1842 2259 24376 2783 82.0 1.583
-18.0 82 41.95 1884 2363 25821 2875 83.2 1.546
-16.0 84 42.97 1925 2470 27349 2966 84.3 1.509
-14.0 86 44.00 1967 2578 28967 3055 85.4 1.474
-12.0 88 45.02 2009 2690 30681 3143 86.4 1.440
-10.0 90 46.04 2051 2803 32495 3230 87.4 1.408
-08.0 92 47.07 2093 2919 34419 3315 88.4 1.375
-06.0 94 48.09 2135 3037 36460 3398 89.3 1.344
-04.0 96 49.11 2177 3158 38624 3479 90.2 1.313
-02.0 98 50.14 2219 3280 40921 3557 91.1 1.281 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 100 51.16 2261 3405 43347 3634 91.9 1.250 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 102 52.18 2303 3533 45911 3707 92.7 1.220 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 104 53.21 2345 3662 48636 3778 93.5 1.191 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 106 54.23 2387 3794 51539 3846 94.2 1.163 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 108 55.25 2428 3929 54634 3911 94.9 1.136 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 110 56.28 2470 4065 57936 3972 95.5 1.110 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 100 51.16 2372 3748 50552 3715 97.0 1.172 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 100 51.16 2125 3009 36299 3423 84.3 1.348


Here is what IMR4198 looks like as well

Cartridge : .450 Marlin
Bullet : .458, 300, Speer JHP 2482
Useable Case Capaci: 59.102 grain H2O = 3.837 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.550 inch = 64.77 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : IMR 4198

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 84 40.93 1905 2418 24319 3000 88.9 1.548
-18.0 86 41.95 1947 2526 25741 3093 89.9 1.512
-16.0 88 42.97 1989 2637 27243 3183 91.0 1.478
-14.0 90 44.00 2032 2750 28833 3271 91.9 1.444
-12.0 92 45.02 2074 2865 30512 3357 92.9 1.411
-10.0 94 46.04 2116 2982 32289 3439 93.7 1.380
-08.0 96 47.07 2158 3102 34168 3519 94.5 1.349
-06.0 98 48.09 2200 3223 36158 3595 95.3 1.319
-04.0 101 49.11 2241 3347 38265 3668 96.0 1.289
-02.0 103 50.14 2283 3472 40499 3737 96.6 1.258
+00.0 105 51.16 2324 3599 42868 3802 97.2 1.229 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 107 52.18 2366 3728 45382 3863 97.8 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 109 53.21 2407 3859 48049 3920 98.2 1.172 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 111 54.23 2448 3991 50878 3973 98.7 1.145 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 113 55.25 2489 4125 53907 4020 99.0 1.119 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 115 56.28 2529 4261 57122 4063 99.3 1.093 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 105 51.16 2426 3920 50322 3735 99.9 1.153 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 105 51.16 2190 3196 35964 3683 90.9 1.326


Both powders looked real good in my 45-70 as well. Didn't have much trouble running 300's up to around 2250. Makes for a danged powerful load.

 

[NYDAN]

SJB, Thank you for the load data. I ran some ballistic studies this morning comparing the factory 325 gr. FTX, the factory 350 FN, and the Speer 300 FNHP at a muzzle velocity of 2300 fps. I found that the Speer 300 at 2300 fps will shoot flatter than the other two and will delivery the same energy or more energy than either of the two factory loads. Plus it is a bonded bullet.

Based on the bullet tests (that I think you submitted) it looks like the bullet I would like to hunt with this fall. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

But, I see from your data that 2300 fps with the H4198 is at max load.

I will see if I can measure the water capacity of a few fired cases later. I need to get going on some other chores right now.

 

[Guy Miner]

Good stuff Dan. My big bore Marlin experience was all with a pair of .45/70 Marlins but I think many of the same concepts apply with the .450, and a case can be made for the .450 being a superior cartridge.

One thing I learned with the big bore, was that max velocity wasn't necessary for good killing power, or good accuracy. Max velocity does flatten out the trajectory a bit, and it also kicks a lot more. These Marlins have a lot of drop in the stock, and seem to dish out a fair bit of recoil & muzzle rise, compared to a bolt action rifle of similar size & power.

The other thing was that many of the lighter bullets were apparently intended for more sedate velocity. I had a few 300 grainers just fail miserably when pushed up near and over 2,000 fps. Most of the 300's are hollow or soft points, intended for the "high velocity" deer loads, around 1800 fps mv. They're also designed to expand readily and not so much for penetration. Frankly, I don't like them. The Speer however, is a different breed of cat among 300's!

Or if you bump up to the 350's, you've also got a real serious bullet.

H4198 proved to be an excellent powder for my purposes with the .45/70 and I'd imagine it will serve you well.

Looking forward to seeing your results!

Guy

 

[DrMike]

With the larger bore cartridges, the larger frontal area and the mass of the bullet combine to make for a very effective kill on game. Guy is correct that maximum velocities are not required to ensure the kill. In fact, it is not unusual that a charge that is a grain or two below maximum delivers the best accuracy; there will still be sufficient mass to push through game and sufficient frontal area to ensure massive hydrostatic shock.

 

[SJB358]

With the larger bore cartridges, the larger frontal area and the mass of the bullet combine to make for a very effective kill on game. Guy is correct that maximum velocities are not required to ensure the kill. In fact, it is not unusual that a charge that is a grain or two below maximum delivers the best accuracy; there will still be sufficient mass to push through game and sufficient frontal area to ensure massive hydrostatic shock.

Without a doubt, I punished myself running full steam H4198 300 loads through mine. Now, I have them throttled back to around 2100 and the rifle shoots them very well and it doesn't bang up the shooter as much easier.

 

[NYDAN]

SJB, The average overflow water capacity of my spent cases is 76.4 grains. On a sample of 5 cases the capacity only varied +/- 0.2 grains.

 

[SJB358]

Rgr, I will check it out and see if tree is any meaningful difference from the previous data I sent.

 

[NYDAN]

Here are some targets I shot after replacing the trigger and replacing the scope base/rings. The first targets are with factory loads at 50 yds. The second targets are some reloads made with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

I don't see much difference in group size between the 51.0 gr. loads and 52.0 gr. loads at 50 yds. According to the Quickload data above the 51.0 gr. is at 100% and the 52.0 gr. is 102%. However, I am not getting the velocities the Quickload data suggest. But, then again, my overflow water capacity is greater than the nominal value.

Any thoughts on 51 gr. vs 52 gr.? Is 52 pushing it too hard?

How do you fine tune a straight wall cartridge with a crimp? Just by adjusting the powder charges?

 

[DrMike]

Tune with powder charge. The elevation change between 52.0 and 51.0 tells you that the velocity differential is more significant than you might imagine. Either of those are giving you reasonable accuracy at this point. That has to be a powerhouse when it smacks any game animal.

 

[JD338]

Looking good Dan.
As Guy and Mike have mentioned, you do not need top speed for killing power, there is already more than enough.
I was pushing the 300 gr loads at 2200 fps in my 45-70 but lowered them to 2100. Still more than enough and the Nosler 300 gr BST is accurate and works very well on WT deer.

You may want to try dropping your load by 1-2 grs and see how she shoots. FWIW, my load at 2100 fps and a 100 yd zero is still capable of 200 and 300 yd shots. 200 yds are easy.

JD338

 

[Dwh7271]

Dan,
That's the 300 gr Speer shot into milk jugs filled with water at 2190 yesterday at 25 feet with my 45-70. Not using 4198 but at least that's the bullet you're discussing. Scotty's tests convinced me to try them.
As Guy and Scotty said, that bullet is a different breed of cats.
I was certainly impressed by the results. I really thought at that range and speed it would fragment but did not.
Sorry the cell phone pic isn't that great.

 

[SJB358]

Awesome thread fellas. Dan your groups look great. I ran mine around the 2300 mark for a little while. Got tired of getting beat around so I dropped back to 2150 and have a much easier shooting rifle.

Dewey, awesome results! It's a really good bullet for the 45-70.

 

[Dwh7271]

Thanks Scotty!
Yep, it seems to be a terrific bullet. Thanks for your post putting me onto it.

 

[SJB358]

Thanks Scotty!
Yep, it seems to be a terrific bullet. Thanks for your post putting me onto it.

Wasn't me Dewey. Somebody at Marlin Owners mentioned it and showed some recoveries from moose and elk. I looked at the price and I was sold. I really like the expanded frontal diameter. Rips a horrific hole in animals and penetrates really well.

 

[JD338]

Scotty

Did you have any success with the Speer on WT deer? How did the exits look?
I've been using the Nosler 300 gr BST since it was introduces. The exits are about the size of a quarter through the ribs.

JD338

 

[SJB358]

Nope, haven't had the chance to run one thru a deer. I know your having really good results with the BST. Brian hammered a small buck with one a few years back. Seems like they do really well on deer. They open up wide that is for sure.

 

[NYDAN]

I tried a lighter load of 50.0 grs. I also tried to hit 2250 fps with 51.6 grs. Referring to the targets previously posted above and the targets below, I am not really seeing a significant difference in group size in loads of 50.0 gr., 51.0 gr., 51.6 gr., and 52.0 gr. Since, I wear a thick recoil pad on my shoulder, the recoil has not been a factor for me.

Unless someone has a suggestion of something else to try, I think I will just try to match the Point of Impact of the factory 325 gr. FTX. My calculations indicate that 50.8 gr. should yield about 2190 fps and match the POI of the factory load.

Your thoughts?

 

[SJB358]

Yup, I'd say your good to go Dan. That's a great load right there! Hopefully you can christen it on a nice buck this Fall.