Newbie Hunter look'n for a combo load.

[Mr Dean]

For anyone interested, this thread started out in the Hunting forum. Things have progressed and I thought that it was now more suitable over here.....Hope I didn't lose anybody that was following!. For new-comer's, this post is in regards to the 300 Win-mag.

OK, here goes;
I started working up the IMR4831-180gr. Partition load and ran into a few interesting things.......
1st. The max OAL (bullet touching lands) for my mdl 70 w/ this cartridge is 3.542"
2nd. Due to the size of the magazine, I have to limit the OAL to under 3.402"
3rd. Working w/ these #'s, the bullet base sits pretty much at the bottom of the case's shoulder.
4th. CRUNCH goes the powder, albeit ever so slightly, at the end of the press stroke.

Is the load safe to shoot even though it isn't listed as compressed in the Nosler #5 (increased pressure)???.

If in fact this is a problem, how much shorter are the Protected Points?. This happened loading 70gr's - Max is listed at 73gr's. (not sure if it would help). I would hate to change. I want the best of the best (higher BC), darn it!!

 

[Mr Dean]

The only dumb questions are the ones that don't get asked. If your groups with factory ammo look better than the ones with your loads, try seating the bullet into the case so that the base of the bullet is even with the neck shoulder junction unless you have a short throated rifle. I have done that on several WBY mags and had it work well. Bullets don't have to be close to the lands to shoot well. Also make sure your stock is not binding on the barrel and all screws are tight(stock/mount/rings).Rick.

My 150gr loads are 3.34 OAL. Bullets are WAY back from the lands. Never done any experimenting with bullet depth.....Why mess w/ something that works?. Had the gun into the smithy last winter. He figured if it works fine on one load the problems aren't likely with the firearm. Actually, after showing him the targets, he was very reluctant to do any work on it at all. Remove the iron sights and do a trigger job was about all that he would consider.

 

[Mr Dean]

Mr. Dean
I have also shot the 300winmag for about 10 years and have recently had my Model 70 rebarreled after about some 1100+ rounds. So like you I have done alot of shooting lately. My experience over this time mirrors rick smith and jd338. RL22,H4831,and IMR4350 have all given good results with the 180gr. bullet. My only suggestion would be to try the 180gr Partition protected point version. This bullet is slightly shorter and can be seated out of the case slightly farther. For what ever reason it has always given me better accuray than the regular version. The only downside is not none of the shops in my area carry it and it must be ordered. I would also suggest trying the 200gr. Partition. While I have never even seen a moose but they have worked great on elk and deer.

:idea: You just might be on to something in regards to the protected point. If I could eliminate that little lead point on my partitions (side-cutters?) I could then lessen the seating depth and get the bullet around .030 from the lands instead of .142 as it is now. Is that the only difference between the bullets?. The Nosler #5 shows cut-a-way's, BC's, and SD's but has no dimensions (would also be nice if they had energy tables...).

Called four different shops today and like you, I can't seem to find one that carry's them. Never asked for prices but little demand usually means EXPENSIVE. Hell, I'm real close to 350 bucks spent already (Canadian - .99 cents US), trying to get a 180gr to fly...........What's a few more!. :roll:

 

[ps300wm]

Mr. Dean
I ask the question about the difference between the regular Partition and the protected point a couple of weeks ago on this forum. Basically, the protected point lacks the little lead nose. I have shot it side by side with the regular version and just can't tell a difference in trajectory(at least in practicle terms). I realize the according to the manual that the B.C. are different but again i just havent seen a difference on the range and sure havent in the field. Like you I think the accuracy difference is in the fact that for any overall cartridge length this bullet is closer to the lands than the regular version. As far as cost they have always cost me the same as the regular version. If you can locate any and want to try them do what i did last year. I ran out of protected points before an antelope hunt. So I filed the noses off the spitzter version and went hunting. The antelope sure didnt know the difference. I have used this bullet on several whitetail,mule deer and elk. It is a great bullet. It hits hard and gives good penetration, and little meat damage. My only other suggestion would be to try the federal premium high energy load with the 200gr. Partition. In my rifle it shoots to the same point of impact as my 180gr. handload. It seems to hit game(and me) slightly harder and is very accurate. It is not cheap but still a bargain in my opinion compared to the results i have got. I hope some of this helps. good luck.

 

[Mr Dean]

Well......................Did the range thing again today.

Made up three rounds of each powder, RL22, IMR4350 and IMR4831. Each cartridge was set up so the bullet was .030 away from the lands. Had to load single shot but thought it would be a good test.

Things more or less came together. The RL22 all hit with in an inch. The 4350 did 1.5" and the 4831 was the same except for one round that was off by 2.5" - Most likely me.

:shock: Spoke w/ my supplier and he say's that I can have some of them Protected Points tomorrow. I'll get several lots made up and hit the paper again on Thurs (range closed Tues and Wed).

I ran out of protected points before an antelope hunt. So I filed the noses off the spitzter version and went hunting. The antelope sure didnt know the difference. I have used this bullet on several whitetail,mule deer and elk. It is a great bullet. It hits hard and gives good penetration, and little meat damage. My only other suggestion would be to try the federal premium high energy load with the 200gr. Partition.

To be honest ps300wm, I was really joking about the side-cutters. But now that I found someone.........Did accuracy get affected and how about expansion. Don't ya need them little lead points to get the bullet to start 'shroom'n'?.

 

[ps300wm]

Mr. Dean
Accuracy, point of impact, on game performance, ect were uneffected. While i wouldnt use side cutters, gently filing worked fine. As far as accuracy being affected what ive seen written on the subject indicates that the little tip is to far away from the so called center of gravity of the bullet to really have a signifigant effect. Keep in mind im talking about hunting situations not bench rest competition. My personal opinion is at these velocities the lead tip is distorted or lost anyway on the trip down the barrel and in flight do to air friction. I wish someone out there could tell us how much friction cause the bullet to heat up during flight and how this compares to the melting point of lead. Concerning needing the tip for expansion if you look at other brands of bullets and commercial ammo you will find alot that follow the potected point theme of a tiny or no lead point. Especially with the 300 win.mag.. Expansion is basically a function of jacket design. By the way when does hunting season start for you? I have about 6 weeks until elk season in OK and NM., but dove season starts in two days and the dog and myself cant wait. Bad thing is this distracts me from the shooting range.

 

[Mr Dean]

Mr. Dean
By the way when does hunting season start for you? I have about 6 weeks until elk season in OK and NM., but dove season starts in two days and the dog and myself cant wait. Bad thing is this distracts me from the shooting range.

BC is a large piece of property. The area that I'm planning for is about a four hour drive. Four point (on ONE antler, NOT including brow tine's) mulie, opens Sept. 1st but I'll be heading up later. Spike forked moose opens Sept. 20th and ANY buck (mule deer) opens up Oct 1st and closes for both species type, Oct 31. I should be in the bush for the last week of Sept. and the first week of Oct.

If you're interested in learning more about our hunting seasons check out this link. http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/fw/wild/synopsis.htm I live in region 2. The area I'm planning this trip for is region 3.

Thanks for your insights in regards to the Partition. Think I'll 'chop' some down and try em out. GOOD LUCK on your quests this year......Give my best to the dog!!.

 

[Mr Dean]

Bought a box of Protected Points today (40 bucks). Using these I can get a full tenth of an inch closer to the barrel. I don't think it will be enough though. As things stand as of now, I'm .052" (loading for the magazine) off of the lands. Not the .030" as I hoped for. Seems as though the bullets are missing only (roughly) half of the lead tips, not most of it, as I had thought.

Anyone care to wager what the range results might be on Thursday?.
I predict the RL22 load to fall apart. The IMR4831 to tighten slightly and the IMR4350 to open slightly.

My crystal ball doesn't show any tack-driving capabilities with these. But then again, it is CRACKED!!.

Here's to high hopes.

BTW. I SWEAR that these Protected Points are just shaved down Partitions from the factory. If they don't work out I will grind another .025" off of them before going to (yet) another bullet. :evil:

 

[Mr Dean]

Well folks;

Went out to the range and did a whole lot of shoot'n the other day. As I expected, the Protected Points were not the cure to my dilemma. The RL22 loads grouped in @ an amazing 7.25" and the IMR4831 and 4350 did around 2.75". :evil:

Had a bunch of Partitions that I cut-off the lead points and I was able to seat them .015" from the lands and..........WAMMO!!. The RL22 came in w/ MOA groups two times in a row. :shock:

Load development is now done (finally) with this round. Next step is to create a good one for the 200gr Partition. Hopefully it wont cost 400 bucks in research and development fee's. :roll:

THANKS TO ALL THAT SUPPORTED!!!!!!! :grin: :lol: 8) :wink:

 

[Mr Dean]

Hey Guy's!

Just a little update: A week before my hunt, I took that mod.70 w/ my prized handloads, back out to the range in an effort to tweak the 300yd zero. The damb thing started to pattern like a shotgun, again!

SOMETHING is wrong...Scope, maybe?
Any ideas out there?

In a fit of rage, I proceeded down to my local Gunnery sales store and bought a brand new Ruger M77 300 Winmag fitted out w/ a Burris 3200 Elite. Rifle in hand, one box of Fed Premium Safari's in the other, and some of my handloads in the pocket - I made my way back to the range, albeit, a pocket full of $$$ lighter.

The factory stuff worked very nicely. Everything hit within an inch.
The handloads did AWESOME. All holes touched one another!
Simple gun. Just point and shoot and all falls into place.
I LOVE IT!!

Two day's later, it nailed a 200lb plus mullie w/ a nice 4x4 crown on his head....Did I mention that I LOVE IT?

Now, what should I do w/ this Model 70? It can shoot good for one day then it wants to take a two week holiday......HELP!

 

[Greg Nolan]

you might have hit it on the head when you said scope. They do sometimes fail but usually it has to do with loose rings or even loose mounts. You might try checking both. Also a weather change may affect your stock if it's wood. Try checking the torque on the screws that hold the stock to the action. If all is well see if you can slide that paper between the barrel and stock. Usually that will show up with progressively larger groups as the barrel heats up but over a weather and humidity change period it might just touch somewhere and change the ressonance of the barrel enough to mess you up. If alll that fails change scopes. Someone you know or a gunshop might have an old one you can borrow to see if it does the same thing. What kind of scope is it by the way?
Good luck. Those things can drive you nuts sometimes. :?:

 

[Mr Dean]

Mr. Nolan: Yup, the rifle in question does in fact have a wood stock. However, when doing the 'paper test', I can always get it to slip about 1/2 or 3/4 of an inch into where the barrel starts to flare out for the chamber. Is this good?

Test shots are done in strings of three w/ a 45 - 60 min rest between groups - Rifle is cold and clean each time.

Don't think weather is a factor. Summer and fall all rolled into one, this year.

Rings and mounts were state of the art, top quality materials - Can't remember what brand though. The scope is a Bushnell 'Buckhorn'. This was mounted on the gun w/ the advice from an old-timer (now dearly departed) smithy, that proclaimed these scopes were severely under-rated and when used w/ premium rings/mounts, performed just as good as the one costing $150 more that I had my eye on. I went with it knowing that this fellow didn't have a vested interest in the store or products. He simply performed a job as a third party....All I know is that when I look through it, the cross-hairs seem to look straight and aligned true to the barrel. Everything was aligned and all screws got a touch of lok-tite when mounted.

One thing of note. This gun can shoot 150gr bullets all day, every day like a hot damb. It's just falls apart when trying to get the heavier stuff to fly. Each and every time I think I've found the 'right' load, I go and buy or build some more only to be disappointed at the next range outing.

That pretty much sums it up. Does this give you a better idea of where should I start???????

Dazed and confused,
Dean.