win 760 vs H 414

[Al in SC]

I have a 22-250 AI and a 260 that I want to use either Win 760 or H 414 powder in. My interest is the pros and cons of each when comparing them.

Temperature sensitivity
cost
barrel heating

I priced powder at the local shop today.
760 @ $26/lb @40 grs =175 loads /lb = $0.1486 each or $14.86 / 100 loads. Listed as Ball.
H 414 @ $30/lb @ 41 grs = 171 loads / lb = $0.1754 each or $17.54 / 100 loads Listed as
Spherical.

$17.54 - $14.86 = $2.69 / 100 difference in cost. There is a cost difference but it is't great.
I realize the grs / load may need tweeking a bit.

What is the difference in ball and spherical?
What other differences can you note? Have you experience with these 2 powders?
Any info, suggestions or experience is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[DrMike]

W760 and H414 are the same powder, packaged under different names.

 

[baltz526]

Todays H414 and W760 are the same. Batchs will look a bit different but load the same.

 

[Al in SC]

Thanks very much. I will be on the way to the store to get the 760.

 

[DrMike]

What is the difference in ball and spherical?

"Ball" was trademarked. Hodgdon (before they owned Winchester powder) was forced to come up with another name--hence, "spherical."

 

[rick smith]

My go to load for the 22/250 is 39.5grs H-414 with a 55gr NBT, think win primers. It has worked in six or seven 22/250s. I have also heard that 760 and 414 are the same but I would work up to a load with either.Rick.

 

[DrMike]

I have also heard that 760 and 414 are the same but I would work up to a load with either.

Always a good idea, primarily because they will almost assuredly have come from different lots.

 

[R Flowers]

This is only an opinion, but look for another powder.

Both 760 and H 414 are dirty burning, temperature sensitive, and lot variable.

I will never use either one again, especially in the 22-250.

My buddy and I used to hunt prairie dogs a lot and after each day's shoot he would spend about 4 times as long cleaning his guns that he shot H 414 in than I did while using H 4895.

And I have never seen such terrible temperature sensitivity and lot to lot variation as with the two powders in question.

Try something like H 4895, Varget, N 140, etc. You will get more consistant results and spend less time cleaning.

 

[rick smith]

Fouled barrels can be due to the gun in question as much as the powder. I have shot 760 in several 375 H&Hs and many 7/08s. H-414 in a number of 22/250s and have not experienced what you report. With Varget I have had pressure spikes and lot to lot variation that caused me to quite using it.Rick.

 

[257 Ackley]

I use H414 in my .260 and have had great results with it. Never have tried it in the 22-250. It should work for the heavier bullets at least.

 

[PJGunner]

I've been using W760 for years and have not seen the problem Mr. Flowers has with that powder. It hasn't burned dirty in the rifles I use it, accuray and velocity have been very good, especially in my 7x57. As far as temperature sensitivity, I do my load work ups in Tucson's very hot summers and most of the time my deer hunts up in the northern part of the state haave encountered temperature ranging from near freezing in the morning some years to highs in the mid to upper 70's in the afternoons. My pet load for one of my .308's uses w760 and the 165 gr. Speer Hot-Core and if there has been any material change in velocity, neither I nor the deer that died have seen it. For the record, the deer invovled were shot at distances ranging from about 35 feet to 250 yards. All were one shot kills.
I agree that W760 and H414 are just different lots of the same powder and I do agree that if switching from one to the other, new load work up should be done. If there is concern about lots of either being different, if your rifle likes the powder, just buy an 8 pound jug and you won't have to worry about it for some time. Depending on how much shooting tou do, that jug should last for a year or two and you don't have to waste time doing another work up until you get another jug.
Paul B.

 

[Al in SC]

THANKS guys. Just picked up a pound of 760. Going to give it a try. Glad Mr Flowers pointed out his concerns. I will be especially observant for these problems. If it works good I will get an 8 pound container.

 

[SJB358]

THANKS guys. Just picked up a pound of 760. Going to give it a try. Glad Mr Flowers pointed out his concerns. I will be especially observant for these problems. If it works good I will get an 8 pound container.

I wanna try some W760 in my son's 7x57 as well. It seems like the powder for that cartridge. So much work to do and so little time..

Good luck Al.

 

[bullet]

They might be packaged by the same company but Q/L have at times given different charges for same bullet and barrel length. Plus, I have H414 and W760 as of late production and when loading them behind the same 140 and 145gr bullets they are over 40fps on average difference and of course this has to do with them being different lots.

 

[bullet]

Here is a short article/blog that my friend Paul Youngblood and I wrote. Thought it might be of some interest.

What Powders Meter Well?

Accurate 2495 – H4350 – H380 - Unique – Winchester 748


In considering what powders will meter well, it is important to evaluate the characteristics of powder. Outside of burn rate and powder density, the granule shape is so important when considering what powders will meter better than others. Of course even if a powder has a great shape conducive to metering, that does not always mean it will be a powder that will meter accurately. Then on top of that you have metering equipment to consider. Face it, some metering equipment does a better job than others, but metering equipment is not the focus of this specific blog in answering the question, “What Powders Meter Well".

There are different types of powder to consider and not only in burn rate and density but in their shape. Burn rate will effect the peak pressure generated by the powder charge, and it is important how we match the cartridge, bullet weight and other factors. Example: Non-magnums typically utilize faster burning powders and the Magnums generally use slower burning powders.

Long Extruded AA2495 – Short Extruded H4350 – Ball 760 – Flake Unique – Flattened Ball 748
Powders take on four basic shapes. Stick powders (large or small extruded cylinders) - ball powder (spherical granules) - flake powder (like tiny disks) - flattened ball powder (ball powder that is flattened slightly).




The extruded powders that have long cylinder shapes like IMR4350, and IMR7828 are examples of this type of powder and they do not meter well at all. Now that said, some stick powders that have small extruded cylinder shapes, like Retumbo and others in the Hodgdon extreme powders, depending on equipment used, meter very well.
I find that powders like TAC, H380, Varget, W748, W760 meter well, and that is due to their shape. Also, IMR 8208 XBR is an accurate metering powder because it is a super short grained extruded rifle powder designed expressly for match, varmint, and AR sniper cartridges. I like how H4350 meters, being one of the Extreme powders by Hodgdon. The granules of these extreme powders were shortened to help their metering quality.

Powders like Accurate Arms AA2520, AA#9 and Ram Shot True Blue, meter accurately through both the RCBS Uniflow, as well as the Pact Electronic dispenser. Of course there are those long extruded powders like IMR 3031, 4227, 4198, 4895, 4320 and 4350, where I break out the balance beam or my digital scale and do by hand.

Paul concurs

It is important to remember the question this blog post is designed to answer. The question is simply which powders meter well? Note that there is no question about if metering well makes a powder better than another powder that doesn’t meter as well. In answering this question, Mike explains the shape characteristics of powders that cause them to meter well or not.

I agree that the shape matters in metering as does size of the granules. I have never met a spherical, or ball powder that did not meter well. And while some extruded powders meter better than others, nothing meters like a ball powder. For example, Reloader 7 (short kernel extruded) meters better than IMR 3031 (long kernel extruded) but Reloader 7 does not meter as well as Big Game (ball powder) from Western powders. Another example of degrees of meter-ability (is that a word?) within powder types, especially extruded powders, is IMR 7828 SSC (Super Short Cut) meters much better than regular IMR 7828.

All of this is somewhat academic in that ease of metering is but one of several deciding factors when choosing a powder. If you are a loader that throws every charge by hand with an RCBS Uni-Flow powder measure and you weigh each charge, perhaps meter-ability is a mild consideration, but if you using a progressive press, choosing a powder that allows for consistent metering by the machine will be crucial to quality (and safe) loads.

This blog will surely look at choosing the ideal powder for a given cartridge someday, but for the purposed of answering the question about which powders meter best, the answer is simple: Ball powders meter better than flake, which meters better than extruded. So if you are looking to load a cartridge and you have some powders in mind that are in the same burn rate, the ball powder in that burn range will meter better than the extruded.

For example, when loading for the 25 WSSM, powders in the 4350 range are appropriate. One could easily choose IMR 4350 for this cartridge, but H 414 has an almost identical burn rate and is a ball powder thus metering better than the extruded IMR 4350.