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 Post subject: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:32 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:44 pm
Posts: 1162
Location: Central Minnesnowta
We've all heard the axiom "don't use reloads for defense, you'd be in a world of hurt legally if you had to use them." I'm wondering if there is any factual basis to this. I've looked, but been unable to find anything from legal or official perspectives, just the same axiom repeated over and over without any corroborating information. Can anybody shed some light on this?

Personally, I put a lot more faith in my own handloads with appropriate bullets than anything that can be purchased at the store, and being able to affordably fire the exact same ammo for practice would be a big plus. In the case of low velocity revolver cartridges, a dead soft wadcutter is perhaps superior to a JHP.

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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 4787
Location: Western Montana
I personally would not feel it was bad to use my own reloads for personal defense. Of course any Law Enforcement agency has to use factory ammunition or they would open up a can of worms if they did. I have heard this the same question that you have asked, but I have not EVER heard of anyone that got themselves into hot water for using their own ammunition to protect themselves or someone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:42 am
Posts: 14491
Location: Washington State
I've never heard of anyone being in trouble for using handloads for self-defense. I have heard of good guys getting in trouble in a self-defense shooting for a lot of other reasons!

Don't discount the factory self-defense ammo - it's usually very good. Stuff like low-flash powders, plated cases, and the latest in bullet technology, plus an incredible record of reliability... Those are the reasons I carry factory loads in my self-defense handguns.

Guy


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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:56 am
Posts: 99
Location: South Carolina
Most likely no one is going to be able to tell the ammo used was reloaded. If you have to use deadly force on a criminal that's about to kill you I don't believe the weapon or ammo matters. I keep my hand guns loaded with law enforcement ammo and my ar loaded with military sniper ammo.
Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:23 pm
Posts: 2394
Location: Echo, Oregon
Well as a responding cop I wouldn't care. I'm not a lawyer, just a retired cop, but the last thing I would tell anyone was that I shot the bad guy with handloads. Other than identifying myself I wouldn't say a thing given a homicide or felonious assault has just occurred.
Having been to a few officer involved shootings there are a few things that can kinda mess things up. Actually there are a lot, most not germane to the conversation. Having spent days looking for missing cases and errant rounds I can tell you it's pretty amazing how far a 230 gr. Federal Tactical can go after passing through a butt cheek, off a window sill, through the window ultimately landing in a child's bed. That family was distressed but took no action against us.
My SWAT partner for years was not so lucky. went to a noise complaint, loud stereo, that's it. He knocks on the door, door opens a crack and out comes the muzzle of a piss ant .25 auto. High speed backing away, my parter is dumping a magazine in the process. Three rounds hit the suspect, three lodge in the door jamb. One of the rounds hit the suspects sturnum, follows the rib, exits his back, goes through the wall lands on some ladies bed. She sues, the department, Smith and Wesson and Speer. My partner was in the process of buying a house, weeks from closing. Mortgage company cancels him. No one else will touch him. The apartment complex won't renew his lease because he's being sued, even though his protected by the city and state law. I don't know if Smith & Wesson or Speer paid anything, the city paid 100k.
I guess my point is a shooting in and of itself is pretty bad, god forbid something goes sideways and a round hits an innocent. With factory ammo at least they have deep pockets. You can bet you will be sued, certainly if your load is hotter than factory.


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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:33 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:31 pm
Posts: 258
As a Florida resident I've spoken with an attorney Friend in regards to using Reloads for Self Defense. His comment was "If your shoot is good you're good to go. If it's a bad shoot I don't care what type of ammo you are using. He has been involved in a "lot" of shooting trials as he comes from an area of Florida where this type of problem is prevalent. I've also spoken with the head sheriff in the county directly to my North. This particular sheriff is one hundred percent behind the armed public and has also said It makes no difference with the ammunition as long as you are in the "right" . Pretty much sums it up.


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 Post subject: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:26 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:27 am
Posts: 156
Probably OK until it becomes a civil matter as salmonchaser alluded to. Then I think it would be best to have the manufacturer as your new best friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:28 am
Posts: 192
I carry and an old Model 28 with factory Remingtons. Out on the ranch it's mostly reloads but in my go to meeting handguns it's factory. I have very little factory rifle ammo but they are hunting guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:22 am 

Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 9:05 am
Posts: 540
Reloads for practice, Factory loads for carry with enough shot through gun to verify reliably and point of impact.


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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:24 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:27 pm
Posts: 941
When we were developing the policy for Wildlife Monitoring (aka Bearwatch or Problem Wildlife Control) here in BC we recommended factory ammo only. The reasoning was that they do have fairly strict quality control measures in place (not to say that they do experience some failures or problems from time to time), whereas there is not always the same level of quality control implemented by some handloaders.

Please do not take this as an attack on handloaders, as many produce fine quality ammunition. It is just that there are individuals out there who will push the limits of maximum loads in published reloading manufacturers, or do not consistently produce quality handloads.

This very fact was demonstrated in a delivery of the Firearms Proficiency course that is required by all WM's to pass on an annual basis along with their WM certification course; the handloads with cast bullets that the instructor had made for the Marlin 45/70 being used in the course for centerfire qualifications, had not been loaded to proper coal, crimped properly and the primers had not been seated consistently, resulting in several misfires and bullets jamming in the lands and when the shells were extracted, some of the bullets were pulled from the cartridge and fell out of the action, with the powder spilling inside the action, and with one bullet staying jammed in the throat, rendering the firearm useless.

If this was to happen in the field, it would create a dangerous situation. Not only for the WM, but potentially for the worker(s) that they are there to protect. (The use of lethal deterrent force is the absolute last resort whenever/wherever possible, but is the decision of the WM under the particular circumstances of any incident with problem wildlife)
Hence, the recommendation was made for use of factory ammo only.


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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:44 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:08 pm
Posts: 20454
Location: Rockford, MI
I have always carried factory loads in my carry guns except for my S&W 629 3" which I have carried a few times. It is loaded with softer Hard Cast 240 gr HP "Deer Gernade" made be Rim Rock Bullets and a stiff load of H110.

JD338

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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:41 pm
Posts: 2460
Location: mid-ohio
Quote:
, a dead soft wadcutter is perhaps superior to a JHP.

Yes they are. Want to see them expand load them upside down and shoot some jugs. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:02 am
Posts: 7104
Location: East Coast
There was a case where a person used hand loaded ammo in a self defense shooting where the perp survived and his lawyer used the deadly accurate hand loaded ammo used against the victim and won the case. If he had used less lethal factory ammo the perps wounds would have been less severe was the lawyers defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:28 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:16 pm
Posts: 8
Using hand loaded ammunition for personal protection is usually not recommended however, if you are an experienced re-loader and have confidence in your loads, you can certainly use such loads in a personal protection sidearm. The problem(s) with doing so will likely come up in any after action court setting if you are being sued by a surviving Attacker or his/her estate. According to Mas Ayoob, hand loads can be easily defended if you or your Attorney are familiar with the courtroom dynamics that are likely to occur! I have been hand loading for my firearms for the better part of 50 years and have worked as a cert. Weapons Instructor in two states during a LE Career, as well as having been cert. by those states in swat, swat sniper, swat entry and Lethal Threat Management through LFI. I achieved Expert Witness status through that and 13 years of on the job training as it were....
I used my own loads during my LE career under three Sheriffs who allowed officers to carry anything they could qualify with and while I and they, were never tested in court, it would have been easy to justify their use and defend in court! To this very day, I continue to use my own loads and frankly, would not trust my life to a "factory round" regardless who the manufacture is! I have seen my share of "factory failures" over the years and have not experienced any failures in my hand loads for over 35 years! I like the fact that I can tailor my loads to a particular firearm for accuracy and terminal effect and being able to inspect primers and cases before completion of the loading process adds a measure of comfort that factory cartridges cannot compete with.
I used those loads to qualify on numerically scored courses of fire and always earned the highest levels of competency, Master or Expert depending on the state. I recently maintained those levels with both revolver and auto, using hand loaded ammo in 357 magnum and a 10mm Glock, both full power loadings. I would recommend that you use what loads that "you personally" feel most comfortable with in a "shoot to live" incident! Defending one's life is an extremely personal situation and the only guy that you can count on is "you, yourself & I".....


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 Post subject: Re: Handloads and self defense
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:45 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:31 pm
Posts: 258
Buckskinner, a "VERY" amen to your comments. I have seen factory ammo with issues and not that long ago while qualifying for my annual HR 218 Our instructor commented that he was seeing a lot of malfunctions with factory ammo. I go over every case and check my ammo every step of the way while handloading and can honestly say I feel totally confident that my ammo is better than factory.


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