1st shot is always off.....

[smitty81]

Hello, My father has an older rifle, I believe that its a winchester but im not 100% positive. Anywho, The first shot is always off, like way off. He shot at an elk at less that 50 yards and missed it and his second shot was dead on, thats how far it's off. I know that its not his aiming because he is a very expierenced hunter and a great shot. He can HIT deer at a distance that I cant even see the deer. I have also shot this gun and expierenced the same affect. 1st shot is way off and the rest are right on the money. It just started to do this within the past coupple of years. He has used this gun since before I was born. My grandfather had gave it to him to use and it is his now as my grandfather has passed away.

What could make the gun shoot like that? My first guess is a fouled barrel. He dosn't clean it as he should, I think that he has some build up in the barrel. Any other gusses? The only other thing I can think of would be that the barrel is just worn out and time for a new one. He has always used winchester 270 win. 140 gr. Partition ammo. Never had a problem with the ammo. He has always had the same scope on it I believe, but I wouldn't think its the scope because it is the same thing every time. 1st shot is off and the next ones are on. If it were the scope I would think they would all be off or maby not the first one all the time. I sincerely think the gun is at fault and not my fathers aiming ability.

It doesn't act like this after ever 4 rounds, it happens when it sits around for a while. Like between deer seasons, it dosn't get shot.

What do you think, dirty barrel?

Deer season is approaching and any help would be appreciated.

 

[steve4102]

You said he doesn't clean it properly. What does he do? Does he lube the bore with an oily patch after hunting season? If so, that first shot through an oily barrel could be the culprit.

 

[smitty81]

no, he just fails to run solvent down the barrel after he uses it, fouled with copper is my guess. Will have to try to run some commer remover down it.

anyone else have any good ideas?

 

[OU812]

no, he just fails to run solvent down the barrel after he uses it, fouled with copper is my guess. Will have to try to run some commer remover down it.

anyone else have any good ideas?

I my self have never seen a copper fouled barrel shoot the first shot poorly and improve with the next shots fired. Usually with copper fouling all shots are off POA and don't come back until the barrel is clean. I know you said he does not run an oily patch down the tube when he is done but what Steve4102 said seems like the most logical reason or at least the most common cause of first shot fliers. To miss an elk at less than 50 yards is one hell of a shift.

The only other thing I could think of for the situation you discribe would be that the first shot is heating the barrel enought to cause the POI to shift, I'm reaching here with the last possible explaination. Most guns shoot best, most repeatable POI with a fouled barrel to a given point of no return.

 

[Guest]

I have to wonder if the stock isn't touching the barrel and then when the first shot is fired, it is heating up enough to move off, or perhaps the reverse is true, but the pressure becomes consistent after the first shot. Sounds like you should check the pressure points along the barrel, just to see where they are.

Maybe it's time to think about a replacement stock? There are plenty of great wood, laminated, and synthetic stocks out there. The first test would be to float the barrel in the current stock, though. In fact, if that solved it, the whole new stock idea could be shelved, unless you're just wanting a new look.

Also, if everything after the first shot is a dead tight group, then don't worry about this, but if the groups are a bit large, take a look at the crown and the bedding. I suspect the barrel is still good, but the bedding or the barrel channel, or the crown, is the problem.

 

[Britz]

I am not trying to be rude, or smart, but here is my opinion:

In order for accuracy to cause a miss of an elk at 50 yards, that means that the gun has to shoot at least 8 MOA off to push the bullet 4 inches off target at 50. Personally I think that if you hit w/in 4 inches of your target at 50, you should be getting some game yet.

So, I've established a conservative amount for the gun to be off inorder to constitute a miss.

I have never had a gun shoot more than 2 MOA off from simply haveing a clean barrel.

Also, if the stalk is the problem, or loose scope, or other things, it would affect all shots.

Even if he is using different ammo from what he sighted in with he should be able to put an animal down at 50.

Either his rifle is junk and he got lucky on the second shot, or he had a case of the jitters and flinched on the first. I am a fairly experienced hunter and a fairly good shot and I have had some doosies of misses, let me tell you lol!

good luck and happy hunting, Mark

 

[Britz]

I guess he could have a rusted bore. After the first shot it could clean it out. However, if he doesn't target practice with his elk rifle, he is out of practice too.

 

[smitty81]

I am not trying to be rude, or smart, but here is my opinion:

In order for accuracy to cause a miss of an elk at 50 yards, that means that the gun has to shoot at least 8 MOA off to push the bullet 4 inches off target at 50. Personally I think that if you hit w/in 4 inches of your target at 50, you should be getting some game yet.

So, I've established a conservative amount for the gun to be off inorder to constitute a miss.

I have never had a gun shoot more than 2 MOA off from simply haveing a clean barrel.

Also, if the stalk is the problem, or loose scope, or other things, it would affect all shots.

Even if he is using different ammo from what he sighted in with he should be able to put an animal down at 50.

Either his rifle is junk and he got lucky on the second shot, or he had a case of the jitters and flinched on the first. I am a fairly experienced hunter and a fairly good shot and I have had some doosies of misses, let me tell you lol!

good luck and happy hunting, Mark

Well, im not really sure. I would have to say for sure that it isnt him. I have been hunting with him since i was a little kid and he dosn't miss a lot of shots. If he does, then it is usually a running shot or a shot over 300 yards. Not to brag him up or anything but i just cant see him having the jitters. As far as the rifle being junk, i would throw that idea out the window because he has been using the gun for years and years and has killed a heck of a lot of deer with the gun in the first shot "previous years".

I can see it being those two ideas myself, just with my expierence in the past deer seasons.

I think dubyam might be on to something, maby the bedding?
I should have him get the gun bedded and floated. I guess i dont know, its really frustrating.......

Thanks for the help guys

 

[Guest]

It's not that difficult to float your own barrel, which is where I'd start if I had a rifle with this problem. Get a couple of dowels about the size of the barrel at the receiver and out nearer the tip of the forearm, and wrap some sandpaper on them (tape it, too) and just go gently. Remember that you can always take more off, but it's pretty tough to put it back. Use some powder or something to find the spots where the barrel is touching as you go along, and sand them out gently. I wouldn't worry about bedding the gun yet, as you want to be sure the barrel is not toast first. Just check the action screws and properly torque them with an in-lb torque wrench. Oh, and once you're satisfied that the barrel channel is floated, remember to re-seal the wood with something to keep it from taking on moisture.

 

[steve4102]

Have you eliminated the Human factor here by shooting this rifle off of a good solid rest with a cold barrel? If so, how far off was the first shots POI compared to the rest of the group? If not, might be a good idea.

 

[smitty81]

Have you eliminated the Human factor here by shooting this rifle off of a good solid rest with a cold barrel? If so, how far off was the first shots POI compared to the rest of the group? If not, might be a good idea.

Yea, done that. All shots were at the same distance. It does the same thing for me as it does for my father.

 

[steve4102]

Yea, done that. All shots were at the same distance. It does the same thing for me as it does for my father.

What does it do? How far off (In inches) was the first shot compared to the rest of the group? At what distance did you test fire it?

 

[JD338]

smitty81

Need a little more information.
What make rifle and scope are we discussing here?
What size groups are you shooting, and at what distance?

I would suggest you give the rifle a good cleaning. Use a good copper solvent like Sweets 7.62 and Shooters Choice MC#7 Bore solvent followed by a light coating of good quality oil like Rem Oil.

Then make sure the action screws are tight, depending on the rifle make, screws should be torqued to 55-60 inch pounds. Also make sure the scope bases and rings are tight.

After you have done this, test the rifle for accuracy. Use a solid shooting platform with sand bags for the forend and the butt of the stock. Take yoour time shooting so you don't over heat the barrel.

Let us know what your results are.

You can also use a dollar bill wrapped around the barrel and run it along the barrel channel of the stock to seee if you have wood touching. Again, depending on the make of rifle, you may have a pressure point at the tip of the forend. This can be removed as dubyam explained.

JD338

 

[tjen]

The frist shot or shots out of a clean oily bore will not be the same as the following shots. It should not be far off thu. I keep my barrels clean but a week or two before deer season shoot 5-10 rounds to recheck the zero and for practice. And I do not clean the bores untill after deer season. My first shot at a deer is thur a cold dirty bore and thats how its shighted in.

If you shoot year round you get a feel for the change from a clean oily barrel to how it shoots say for the next say fifty rounds. Also you can barrels to much sometimes a little copper left smothes the bore and it shoots better. You can have clean and too clean just like dirty ( inuse) and too dirty or unaccurite barrels due to excess fouling..