.264 vs 26

[reflex264]

After reading the article in Shooting Times I was left scratching my head. The .264 failure was not based on fact. Gun press and a great deal of it from a man that never shot one (as he later admited) coupled with the intro of the 7 Rem Mag was a likely culprit. A deeper cause is at the root of it. The model 70 Westerner had an odd throat to say the least. It was designed around a 140gr dual diameter bullet. The from of the bullet from the case mouth out measures .257". The whole stunt was avoideding pressure spikes. Weatherby simply added some freebore to their guns problem solved. If the .264 was too much of a good thing how can more be better.

Through extensive load testing involving twist rates, barrel length and modern bullets and powders we know that a .264 throated like a Weatherby with a 27" barrel will reach 3400fps with a 130gr bullet. What boggles my mind is that Nosler uses a 24" barrel to test a cartridge that for years has shown it will get at least 100fps more from a 26" tube. Consider that the published data with 61grs of IMR7828 achieves 3153fps from the 24" wiseman test barrel. My son has a 1:9 douglas barrled gun that using the same load will achieve 3400fps. My 24" barreled Rem 700 which has the free bore type throat (Remington got that part right) using a pressure tested load of 68gr Ramshot Magnum breaks 3000fps with the 130 AB. 2 more grains of Magnum put it over 3100fps. So on a long range rifle how much harder is it to carry 3" more barrel? More later. reflex264

 

[gerry]

I have not read the article but will say in general there are a lot of myths out there that people think are true but aren't such as "everyone knows" the 264 WM 6.5x284 and now the 26 Nosler are barrel burners. I have always wondered why Nosler doesn't have data for powders that people actually use in a 264 WM instead of fast stuff like IMR 4350, RL 19 and even H 4831. In my 24" 264 WM I had no trouble reaching 3100 fps with 140's and 3200 fps with 130's using published data, many other 264 users hot rod the round some of the guys who shoot long barrels want speed and are willing to push hard to get it.

There are regional differences when it comes to terrain those who live in open country or shoot long range on a farm field can easily use a very long barreled gun I went with 24" because I have to go through stuff like this.

 

[reflex264]

The online data vs the last manual includes some of the more appropriate powders for the 130 AB but the data for the 140s is still lacking. Not to beat Nosler up but yo can see why I am a bit mistified.

 

[truck driver]

I've always favored a 26" barrel on my rifles and watched the gun manufactures chop the barrel length over the years using the old adage that the shorter barrels were handier and more maneuverable in tight cover with little loss of velocity and at the same time jacking the price up for less performance and the hunting public with the push from the gun rags bought spiel.
When I had my 257 Roberts built with a 26" barrel I found it to be just as easy to carry as I did my 30" barreled shot gun when hunting mountain grouse or rabbits in heavy cover. The same goes for my 36" barreled muzzle loading rifle. I do prefer a 26" barrel on my Rem. 1100 or Browning BPS which makes them very handy in the field or woods.
If I were to build a new rifle on the 26Nosler it would have to have at least a 26" barrel just for balance.
I can see the point that a shorter barrel will be lighter and easier to carry when busting threw heavy brush but then if your doing that your driving the game out ahead of you unless your like me and you are sneaking into that cover to catch the big one bedded down or using it to cover yourself from game in an open field or mountainside clearing.

 

[reflex264]

Here is another group

 

[truck driver]

Dang reflex you missed the dime. :lol:

 

[gerry]

The online data vs the last manual includes some of the more appropriate powders for the 130 AB but the data for the 140s is still lacking. Not to beat Nosler up but yo can see why I am a bit mistified.

I like Nosler too but they missed the boat with this one, powders like Retumbo, RL 25, RL33 and other slow burners should have been used then the 264 data would be up where it should be. If I ever do a 26 Nosler it will be 24" as well which might get me into more trouble, lol

 

[reflex264]

Dang reflex you missed the dime. :lol:

Nobody is perfect.......

 

[truck driver]

Dang reflex you missed the dime. :lol:

Nobody is perfect.......

None of us are and me especially. But we have a lot of politicians that think they are. :lol:

 

[truck driver]

I'm not sure who or what has put the nail in the 264 Winchesters coffin, gun rags or Winchester their self from poor barrel and chamber design. With the proper rate of twist and chamber dimensions it can and does preform very well but like everything else it takes a gun crank to toy with it to get it right and the so called Engineers let their ego get the best of them and won't make the changes to get it right so we loose a lot of good rifles and new cartridges like that.
All we have to do is look at the 338-06 A-square and Weatherby who chambered the rifles for it.
Irregular cartridge dimensions and high price ammo only from Weatherby and a rifle too expensive for most to afford to buy plus no other rifle manufactures picking it up left it to the custom builders and reloaders to keep it alive.

 

[SJB358]

The online data vs the last manual includes some of the more appropriate powders for the 130 AB but the data for the 140s is still lacking. Not to beat Nosler up but yo can see why I am a bit mistified.

I like Nosler too but they missed the boat with this one, powders like Retumbo, RL 25, RL33 and other slow burners should have been used then the 264 data would be up where it should be. If I ever do a 26 Nosler it will be 24" as well which might get me into more trouble, lol

Great point Gerry. It took Dr. Mike providing some detailed QL data along with my H20 case capacity to come up with some solid numbers. After that, I had 0 issues of getting 3180 140BT / 3200 140AB with RL25, and my Lord, they are accurate.

If the 264 is a barrel burner, I can't really tell. I shoot a 7 WSM, 270WSM, 7mm Rem Mag, 338 and a bunch of others, the same way, slow and deliberate for the most part. No more than 3 rounds inside of 5 minutes. The barrel will get warm, but never scalding hot. I really enjoy the 264 Win Mag. I actually neglect it as I out it together for open country deer and just haven't had the chance. It does very well though.

 

[preacher]

I have a friend who had one of the first Mod 700, 24"bbl models and when I saw him, I always offered him $150 for it, jokingly. That was cheap even for 1978! ha One day he took me aside and said, I'm in a bind, I'll do it! Having young twin girls and bills,etc, well, I didn't have the $150, but another hunting buddy of mine did. He bought it at my suggestion. He still has it, he and now his boys have shot tons of hogs and SE Texas whitetails with it, mostly with 140gr Nosler going 3000fps (loaded for him by another friend of ours, I moved off in 87 for the ministry) I had previously loaded the Speer 140 for him, also around 3000fps. He went through two early Redfield Widefields until he finally put a Leupold on it ( wet down there, foggy) He is NOT a stickler for barrel cleaning either, and it still shoots under an inch. Maybe it was the 3000fps as opposed to 3200? I know for a fact he has never hardly shot enough to even warm the barrel at a sight in session. He is very slow and methodical ( read "cheap", ha hates to shot up his ammo, ha) The 26 Nosler does intrigue me, but I don't shoot long range anymore ( I don't want to fight the puckerbrush to go get him!) I had the most fun with a 24"bbl 6.5/284 with formed 284 Winchester brass. I shot both the Nosler 125/120 to 3200 with it and it was super flat and a real killer on antelope to big fallow deer. I traded it to a friend, now I'm "considering" a 26"bbl 6.5 Creedmoor...considering....considering, lol

 

[muleman]

Perhaps the data for the 264(fast powders) hasn't been updated in many years. I know that I've taken a look at some older calibers that had less than stellar performance in the past due to lack of appropriate powders and bullets. Putting a rifle/cartridge together that doesn't mate well will give you poor performance. Overbore cartridges need longer barrels to maximize velocity. Sometimes a smaller capacity cartridge is a better fit for a shorter barrel. A couple of decades ago we didn't have bonded/mono bullets or the much slower powders so high performance rounds didn't give us anything but a headache. Thirty years ago(before I reloaded) I owned a 7mmBee that I only would shoot Partitions out of because every other bullet would blow up on a deer inside 100yds. Some of these older cartridges chambered in modern rifles using the newer bullets/powder will really shine. A few that really perform for me are the 7x57, 280 and 300H&H. I'm quite sure that the 264 is one of those. I'd look at the 220 swift but my 22-250AI is all that.

Scott
P.S.
Never owned a 264 or any 6.5 until now. I'm building a 26Nosler as I write this.

 

[1Shot]

I have a 264 Win mag with a 9" twist 27 3/4" Shilen barrel on a 700 Rem action and with Retumbo I comfortably get 3350 fps with 130 AB and 1/2 MOA accuracy. SMOKES DEER. Shoots so flat that I have it sighted in 3" high at 100 yards and I can hold center of front shoulder out to 400 yards and BANG FLOP.

 

[reflex264]

I have a 264 Win mag with a 9" twist 27 3/4" Shilen barrel on a 700 Rem action and with Retumbo I comfortably get 3350 fps with 130 AB and 1/2 MOA accuracy. SMOKES DEER. Shoots so flat that I have it sighted in 3" high at 100 yards and I can hold center of front shoulder out to 400 yards and BANG FLOP.

Yep exactly what we have seen from over a dozen guns. reflex264

 

[gerry]

Hodgdon lists data for the 130 gr AccuBond and Retumbo now on their online data, 64.1 gr for 3090 fps at only 60,800 psi which seems really low for a round like the 264 WM. I went up to 67 gr with that bullet and encountered no issues. On the other hand 63 gr Retumbo and the 130 gr Swift game me over 3300 fps.

 

[Divernhunter]

I am interested in some of the Retumbo loads(or other powders) you guys use for the 264Win mag. I have a 26" Douglas barrel on my rifle. Loads would be used for hunting.

 

[Rem Jim]

I used H870 in my 264 WM when i had it with 140 Nosler Parts and was VERY accurate - don't remember the Velocity though ? Im thinking about 3000 fps with a 24 " Rem M700 RJ

 

[Oldtrader3]

Remember that when the .264 got full marketing release was in 1958. Winchester was only sold about 26,000 rifles in .264 during the entire five years from when it was released in 1958 to the end of the Pre-64 series in 1963. This was out of about 130,000 total rifles sold total for that period. I sounds like it was a marketing failure? I went and looked at them in 1962 when one of my hunting friends bought a .264WM for elk hunting. I did not like the 22 inch barrel and bought a Husqvarna 7mm Rem Mag with a 24 inch barrel instead. Later, when I wanted an elk rifle, I bought a .338 WM.

 

[SJB358]

Is like to go back in time and get one of 26" barreled Westerners though. It'd be a good companion to the 338.