35 Whelen AI bullet speeds w/newer powders

[Bonz]

Now that guys have been working with the newer niche powders (CFE 223, 8208, TAC, RL17, others) in the 35 Whelen/AI, is there any powder pushing a 200 grain Barnes TTSX or 200 grain AccuBond reliably and safely at 3000 fps, specifically in the AI but also wondering if the std Whelen shows better velocity with the niche powders as well.

I have not been able to get a reliable/consistent read with my pro chronograph recently. I think it is time for a new one. However, I know with IMR 4064, IMR 4320 and Varget I can push 2900-2975 fps with the 200 TTSX and keep primer pockets snug for many loadings and with no other pressure indications. This is with a 25" bbl and an AI chamber.

Can you guys post up your velocity and powder used to get that velocity so we can make a list of how powders seem to be stacking up against each other?

Not looking for charge weights, unless it is appropriate to share those, but looking for a general tendency of how the powders are working in real life.

Make sense?

Thanks in advance!

With that said, took the AI to a newer indoor range last week when I had a free evening. It was plugging the 200 TTSX into .8" groups at 2925 fps with IMR 4064 and a CCI 250 primer. I can get a few more fps, but I like running just a tad below max as I think we all do.

 

[truck driver]

Howard;
I think you have all my info. I never tried to reach 3000fps but did manage 2965fps in a 24" barrel with no problems with .75" groups at 100yds with cfe223 and a 200gr AB. This powder gave me the best case fill with out compressing the load. I have been playing with rl17 but that has been with 225gr & 250gr bullets. I have tried to keep my pressures around 60Kpsi. I think I shared a QL with the cfe223 info but not sure. 8208 worked best in the standard 35 Whelen and I only had medium success with it in the AI version though I shot up a lot of bullets trying to get the best performance out of it. The pictures I posted of the case necks breaking off and cracking still had tight primer pockets. I have and old stash of Winchester white box primers I used in finding my best loads and they are hotter than the standard large rifle primers but not a true magnum primer like the ones marked for standard or magnum loads and yes I have some of those also but they are for large pistol primers if I remember correctly.
With my load and a 200gr AB you can probably reach 3000fps in your rifle with the extra inch of barrel. I should have a QL for the Barnes ttsx also since I got a box of them to try but didn't finish a work up since I didn't want the extra penetration I would get for White tail deer and it would be dangerous in some of the places I hunt. I like to expend 90% of the bullet energy in the game with just enough left to get an exit wound. Lead core bullets seem to do it best so that works for me.

 

[Bonz]

Thanks Roger. I guess if there's a shot I wouldn't take with the TTSX that I would with AccuBond or cup and core because of what lies beyond, I would not take the shot. Held off on a nice muley buck last fall because there was another buck right behind him. Any bullet from my 35 Whelen AI would have taken them both on a broadside shot. And if the bullet traveling beyond the animal is the issue, any exit for me would not be desirable and I cannot ever guarantee that for safety sake.

With that said, I do have all your info you shared, got me into being interested as to what results from others is coming from your initial work .

Feel free to chime in folks, definitely an invitation to the collective to see what kinds of trends and patterns we are getting.

 

[truck driver]

Your welcome Howard. I will more than likely end up working up a load for the TTSX for Bear since I plan on going to Canada this coming spring and would like to make sure I could anchor one in his tracks with a 200gr bullet though I'm sure my 200gr Ab load would do the job or I could load up some 250gr partitions.

 

[Bonz]

Am I correct that the hunt would most likely be over bait? Or is it spot and stalk with shots potentially out to a couple hundred yards?

My thought is shooting for the shoulder you want the toughest bullet to anchor it as you have said. That is the 200 TTSX in my mind. And the speed/ aerodynamics give you some range as well. The best of both worlds. Also the 250 Partition you mention would be excellent because of the remaining two thirds behind the divider that will drive through about anything on the broadside shoulder shot at close range and not come apart.

Or load up the 225 TSX at 2700 fps and do it all as well. Only downside is the BC is virtually the same as the 200 TTSX and the TTSX can be pushed decently faster to make a difference long-range in my opinion.

I load the 160 gr Partition in my fathers 280 Remington at around 2750 fps and it is devastating on elk from any angle. I know from experience of watching animals fall the Partiton can anchor things as well as any bullet by breaking shoulders.

 

[truck driver]

Howard, I do believe it will be over bait but don't know the particulars just yet.

 

[Bonz]

Ok, slow Saturday night around the house...

Alrighty then... Assuming bait. The shots won't be terribly long, this may be a great and fun opportunity to go totally old-school and shoot the 250 grain Speer or Hornady Spire Point or even RN. Of course a 250 Partition would perform with aplomb as well. Load that to 2400-2500 fps, no need for that last 100 fps or so and get your bear.

Yeah, that goes against what I just said for the TTSX, however it is somewhat of a specialty situation and the distance variable can be ruled out over bait. I shot two elk with the 250 gr spire point (2600-2650 fps) in between using all different weights (200 X, 225 X, 250X, 200 TTSX) of X-Bullets to take an elk and they hit the mark. That was my old school nostalgia streak for two seasons, about 4 years into shooting the 35 Whelen Improved in the mid-2000's.

However despite being a tall and fit human being with a tolerance for recoil and looking through the shot, the 200's at any speed recoil a lot less than the 250s at 2500 to 2600 fps And the 200's fly a lot flatter, so I am matching the bullet to my need for range out to 350 yards or so without having to be as critical about figuring bullet drop that is a reality with the heavier projectiles. Yes, 250s will do it at that range and the velocities the round can achieve. However the 200's give more in the way of in-flight ballistics without compromising anything on the terminal end.

Reality is, even if I knew my shots would never be over a couple hundred yards, or I would never hunt anything bigger than deer, I would still choose the 200 TTSX. I shot a last evening-of-the-season muley buck in 2015 at 100 yards and he dropped as easily and quickly as every elk that has met that bullet. Purely broadside and cleanly through the lungs, between ribs going in and hit a rib going out. There's no question the X Bullets do not liquefy the heart and lungs, they tend to make chunks out of vitals they encounter. And for sure minimal bloodshot meat damage. Bloodshot meat does nothing to destroy vitals. Liquefied heart/lungs or chunks of heart/lung, either works and in my mind and experience, neither will let an animal run or move further than another.

Anyway, sorry if that was a bit rambling. Have a good night!

 

[truck driver]

Howard it's your post , Ramble all you want and thanks for the info.

 

[Bonz]

Thanks Rodger! It's a bummer no one else wants to post up and play in this thread though! I hoped for sure there would be more guys working with the newer powders in the 35 Whelen/AI.

 

[truck driver]

The few here that own and shoot the 35 Whelen/AI seem to feel they have nothing more to get out of it and are satisfied with the results from the old stand by powders I guess.
As great as the standard 35 Whelen is the Ackely version is just a little better because of the benefits it provides other than increased velocity.

 

[preacher]

Well, you guys know I love the ol Whelan AI, but I felt I had "gambled long enough" with my favorite loads, ha. I had it converted to the Big Swede, but, I didn't have to, I just wanted to. I would think TAC would be a good one to use with the 200s, as maybe Hunter would too. For me, I had such good results from R15 with the heavies, I just didn't feel I could beat it. I like TAC in my 338 Federal/160TTSX but I did not get great results in it with MR2000 and the 200 Speer.
Anyhow, I'm watching you guys to see what you end up discovering.

 

[SJB358]

No Ackley here, but 4064 and RL15 have worked really well for me. I dig the Whelen for the same reasons as you Bonz. It'll crush elk and big stuff without drama.