6.5 Creedmoor out of 20" barrel

[Nimrod84]

I have a Sauer 100 inbound in 6.5 Creedmoor and a 20" barrel. It will be used with a 9" suppressor, which might add some velocity to the loads; but I don't think it would make the slower powders suitable...

I am totally new to the 6.5 Creedmoor and picked-up a box of the 130 grain Sierra Game Changers and Hornady 130 ELD-M along with Starline Large Primer brass and the cheaper Hornady dies and a Lee Collet Die. I figured the shorter barrel would likely handle the sub 140 grain bullet weights better, and well, they were what I could get my grubby paws on immediately at a reasonable price. I did pickup two boxes of loaded S&B 140 grain ammo to try out.

Game plan at this point is to start with about 35 grains of Varget and move up to 38.5-39 grains with both of the bullets. I don't see a lot of data with the 6.5 Staball powder, but I have over half a pound of it and 42-45 grains is my fall back powder (given Hodgdon's load data with the 130 grain AccuBond and 135 grain A-tip). I have IMR 4451, RL-22, RL-23, IMR 4831, H 4831sc and about half a pound of IMR 4955 stocked, but I don't see that they would be a good match... Honestly IMR 4451 looks like it could work, and be pretty far from ideal... I'm probably going to start with CCI 200 or possibly WLR primers.

Any advice would be appreciated, even if it is to get my hands on H4350 and try the 140-147 grainers. Beyond the general request for advice, are their any tricks to these bullets and or with the Creedmoor?

Thank you,
Nimrod84

 

[cosh]

Looking at the twist for the Sauer 100, same as they use on the 6.5x55 Swede. I suppose 140 grain and lighter will work fine for that twist. The 20-inch barrel is fine too - this rifleshooter test showed some loss of velocity but not much.

https://rifleshooter.com/2019/03/6-5-cr ... city-2019/

I use H4350 for it's temp stability in hunting situations. I don't have a 6.5 Creed but would expect that powder to perform. I load for 6.5x55 Swede using mostly H4350, some H4895 for reduced loads. I have some IMR4451 loaded but didn't have time to test them. IMR4831 worked well in the heavier bullets, 24-inch barrel though.

 

[Nimrod84]

Thanks Cosh. Your 6.5x55 and the 6.5 Creedmoor should be about the same ballistically. Most of my reloading has been for 30-06, 280 Rem and Ackley with 24" tubes with heavy for caliber bullets. So this is a new exercise for me. Thank you again for the link!

Please let me know how the IMR 4451 works for you - I have about 9 lbs of the stuff and I love it in 30-06.

That article was part of why I went with the 130's and am why I'm thinking I need to use a fairly fast powder. My reasoning was that the 140 and 147 grainers were sub 2600 fps by a wide margin with a 20" barrel. The handloaded 140 grain and H4350 was fine in my book at 20", but its change in combustion seemed to hit at 20" with a 40 fps drop. The 130 and 129 grainers maintained over 2700 fps down to 20" of barrel. The 130's had two big drops - a 58 fps drop from 22" to 21" and from 20" to 19" it was 44 fps. The 129's had 37fps and 24 fps losses respectively; which tells me that the faster burning powders should work better.

 

[Songdog]

I’ve shot a metric ton of rounds out of a 20” .260 over the past 10 years or so.... much of it through a 9” SAS can. It’s pretty easy to get 2825 out of 120/123 grain bullets (Amax, Scenar, NBT), running both 4350 and 4064. I also got 2670 out of the 139 Scenar and 4350. 130 Accubonds and 127 LRX ran about 2750 with 4350 or RE23.

I prefer the 123 Scenar or Amax for inside 1/2 mile steel shooting, and the 127 LRX on game from coyotes to elk.

 

[358 WCF]

I've been wrasslin' with a Ruger 20" 6.5 off & on for a few months. The S&B 140s do right at 2600 fps from my barrel & shoot about 1 1/4" at 100 yds. Brass has been my biggest hurdle so far. The S&B brass may be more trouble than it's worth to reload. You'll see what I mean when you try to seat primers. The pockets are really tight & too shallow. Hornady is a little better but it's been too windy to shoot groups here for about 2 months. Last Sunday started out calm, so I went to the range, clocked some RL16/140 starter loads & got past 2700 fps @42 gr. with no pressure sign yet. There were a few beginnings of reasonable 3/4" groups but the wind had picked up again & it was brutal & switchy so they opened way up to a few inches if I missed the condition. My 22-250 Ackley shot thru the mess with 53s better than the 140 6.5 did. It did a 1" 20 shot group with fireforming loads.

I got some PPU 123gr. spitzers & will be trying H4895 with them just to be different, but they run .267" & had to get seated real deep before I could close the bolt. Just cant depend on nuthin'. Save a nickle, spend a $10 spot. We'll see how they shoot maybe tomorrow. It's an adventure, but it ain't no easy date on prom night so far. Good luck with your project.

 

[Nimrod84]

Thanks Sondog and 358 WCF. That is great shooting with the fireforming loads.

Good to know on the S&B primer pockets. They clocked 2450ish fps for me.

Will keep the LRX in mind for game along with the 120 gr class for fun. I am hitting the lands around 2.9" COAL, so their should be plenty of room for wonder bullets.

The 130 game changers on first blush look good. Single round test loads at 0.5 gr increments between 36-38.5 grains of Varget were within 1.5" (about 1.3" vertical and 0.6" horizontal). Change in light conditions could account for most of the vertical. I tired two at 38.5 grains, they were touching and were in the 2740-2750 fps range. Have 5 loads made up at 38.5 and 38.7 to see how things shake out.

The 130 ELD-M loads were slower and were more random... I had to reseat them deeper and I think the 6.5 Creed is a bit finicky with neck tension. Regarding neck tension, the 6.5 Lee Collet Die has no play / feel. It seems to be locked up unless I swap the retaining screw from another LCD. Then I can feel everything moving... I'm not sure what to make of this...

Thank you again.

 

[Nimrod84]

Quick update.

Velocities are going to be low for today compared to the last update - cloudy / wet conditions today and I'm using an optical chrony.

The 130 game changers provided 4 shots within 1" at 175 yards and clocked 2700 fps with 38.5 grains of Varget. With virgin Starline brass, I'm thrilled. The 5th shot went wild to the left - as the can had loosened.

5 shots with 38.7 grains of Varget produced about a 1.5" group at 175 yards and clocked 2720-2730 fps.

My plan is to make as many loads with 38.5 grains of Varget as I can with the lot of powder I've been using. I'm down to about 1/4 a lb of it and have 5lbs of a different lot awaiting testing. At that time I'll probably try the 120's and start working up a hunting load. Next up is testing RL-23 in my 280 AI.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

 

[358 WCF]

Nimrod,

Your 130 gr load sounds promising.

I got to shoot the 123 gr. PPUs with Fed. 210Ms & H4895 last week with a few 4-shot groups under an inch on the way up to 2900+fps @40 gr. The bolt got a little sticky at 39, decent group at 38.5 & 2858 fps. so will call that max. These are .267" bullets so had to get seated to 2.495" just short of touching.

I tried some very old 120 Ballistic Tips today, which showed better promise, with the same components as last week's loads. These were seated longer (2.760") & the 4 shot groups were all sub 3/4" for 3 with 1 out, best at 39gr & 2882 fps. Bolt did not get sticky even at 40 gr.

Some more Ballistic Tips with IMR4451 are ready to go, since that's Sierra's accuracy load for 120s. Maybe fiddling with the seating depth will make the flyers go away if I can find some more Ballistic Tips somewhere.

 

[Nimrod84]

Thanks for the load data 358 WCF.

That is good shooting with both the PPU's and BT's. Where the BT's you shot with H4895 as well?

 

[358 WCF]

Yeah. Everything was a duplicate load. down to the same 20 pieces of brass, except for the bullet & the OAL. The PPUs might be usable as hunting bullets, but pressure peaks before max velocity for the weight.

The scope isn't powerful enough to see which was the flyer with the Ballistic Tips. Maybe 1st shot, maybe 4th shot, maybe at random. Just searched all the usual places & there are no more 120 BTs to be had. Some Sierra HP Game King 130s are coming by Friday.

 

[Divernhunter]

The powder that gives the most FPS in a longer barrel will also be the powder that gives the most FPS in the shorter one.
It may look like a shorter barrel will do better with faster powder BUT that is not true.
The 6.5Crudmore is nothing more than a pimped up, born again 6.5X55. They will both shoot the same bullets at about the same FPS. The 6.5X55 can, in most cases, be loaded a bit hotter but not enough that matters ---especially to an animal.

 

[Nimrod84]

Wish I could scrounge up some 120 BT's for you 358 - you might want to check https://www.natchezss.com/nosler-ballis ... 50-ct.html.

Diver, I won't argue the ballistics of the 6.5x55 to the "Crudmoor" or 260 Rem. I sure can't tell a difference between them, other than the 6.5x55 does better with super heavy bullets i.e. 156 grain. All are good cartridges and I know a guy who shoots all three just for the spice of life.

 

[358 WCF]

Wish I could scrounge up some 120 BT's for you 358 - you might want to check https://www.natchezss.com/nosler-ballis ... 50-ct.html.


Thanks. They had 3 boxes but now have none. Coulda swore I looked there last night. It was late.

 

[Nimrod84]

I sure appreciate the help!

The 130 gr Game Changer load works well out to about 1100 yards, seems to have some issues out at 1200 yards but I'm not sure if it was me or the bullets going subsonic. I would hazard that it is both me and the load...

Either my inputs are off or the BC of the 130 Game Changers are optimistic for my lowish 2700-2750 fps velocity. If anyone has a G7 BC for the 130 grain Game Changer, please let me know. With the fired brass I'm thinking I might experiment with IMR 4451 or H4350 (if I can get my hands on it) and see if I can't eek out an extra 100 fps.

I had about a foot more drop at 1075-1100 yards than anticipated, but it was holding about 0.5 MOA on two outings with minimal wind. On the 2nd outing, I went 3 for 3 with about a 5" spread between shoots; first two had a 5" vertical between them with no real horizontal dispersion, third shot was between the two but left. Ammo was running low so I handed the gun over to my father who put a round about 2.5" lower than my last / left shot. We then moved out to 1200 yards where things fell apart on a big 6'x4' steel target - out of 8 shots I hit it 3 times.

Thank you again!

 

[SJB358]

I use the 139 Scenar at 2740 with RL17 in my 20" AR, shoots really well and cases have lasted really well in the gas gun. Even the less than awesome Hornady brass has been pretty good in this one.

I use RL26 with the 147 ELD at 2775 in my 24" Tikka. Either of them are pretty solid loads, out to 700 so far. It is one of the easiest cartridges I have found to work with and it is a blast tearing stuff up with it!

 

[358 WCF]

Howdy Nimrod,

Wind has diminished the last few weeks, so got more results with 120s & 130s. Wish I had a longer range. The place I shoot stops at 300 yds.

The Ballistic Tips came from Natchez in record time. Thanks again. IMR 4451 was up 1st with WLRs. The 4 shot groups were still around an inch but rounder... less vertical & I got to 45 gr. @ 2918 fps. RL16 gave a little better speed with about the same groups again with WLRs. I got as high as 3004fps @ 45.5 gr. but had a light ejector mark on one piece of brass. Bolt lift was unchanged. SD & ES were better with RL16 than 4451 showing single digits #s with 44 gr. @2894 fps.

I tried the 130 Sierra HPGKs with your Varget load stopping at 39gr. & 2818fps. Groups were under 1" at 37.5 & 38 gr. Also since 4895 worked pretty well with 120s I tried RL15 with the 130s. 38.5gr. shot 4 into .725" @2793fps. with an SD of 3 & ES of 7. Fed 210M primers in all 130 loads. There was noticeable vertical with RL15. The wind was back, but not as bad as last month, for 130 testing as well.

I guess next is seating depth adjustment & then primers, but doubt if the rifle will consistently do much better than 3/4 to an inch @ 100 yds.

SHHHHHH... dont tell everybody but Midsouth has H4350 in 1 & 8#ers. https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/ ... owder-1-lb

 

[Nimrod84]

SJB358 and 358 WCF

Thanks for the feedback / load data. The 6.5 creed really does seem stupid easy to work with - I mean, if I can stumble upon a decent load right out of the gate then anyone can with a capable rifle.

358, thanks for the heads up and I won't tell anyone about Midsouth. I'm actually a bit torn between buying H4350 and RL-16 as the next powder for the 6.5 creed or just jumping in with IMR 4451. I've got about 9 lbs of IMR 4451, which I go through a lb+ a year in a couple of 30-06s, and it seems easy to work well but not exceptionally.

Any feedback on how the RL-16 is for temperature sensitivity in your 6.5? MI summers get into the 90's with regularity and I've had November 15th / opening morning as low as -2 F and afternoons hitting 70F. Usually temp isn't a big deal hunting, I plan for 30-40 F and check the loads at those temps in the spring, but I didn't have the rifle this spring to properly vet loads.

Local range tops out at 200 yards and is only about 6 miles away from my house and sorta on the way to work. I try to get out their at least once every two weeks if not every week. The 200 yard range is about 12-14 foot above the shooting pit; so I normally limit my shooting to the 175 yard range that is level. Level shooting allows better readings with my optical chronograph. I get to play out at the longer ranges maybe 3-6 times a year; in short wind routinely kicks my hiney! If your 300 yard range is reasonably close than I envy you.

FYI - I'm not sure what Ruger you are shooting, but the Ruger M77's I've owned and shot have all tended to come in just under 1" at 100 yards for 4 rounds and sometimes 5 rounds with their preferred loads. I did notice a good jump in accuracy going from 3-9 to higher power scopes - usually 4-12.

Thanks again gentlemen.

 

[358 WCF]

Nimrod, The Ruger is one of those cheap plastic PsOS that came complete with a lower end Vortex 4-12x. It's the 1st new piece I've bought in many years & was kind of an impulse buy at a gunshow last fall to check out what's new & exciting in rifles. Not terribly impressed, but it's a challenge. Maybe one of the grandkids will be able to use it once it gets dialed in.

I'm still trying to get up to speed on all the new stuff that's come out in the last 25 years. Life happened & the loading equipment got boxed up when Hazmat fees were just beginning & RL22 still had Hercules on the label. If it were me, I'd get 1 or 2 #s of both 4350 & RL16. The 4350s are one of the more useful powders for many cartridges & it's always good to have an alternate.
But then, IMR4451 is working pretty well in a few things too. I'm just having great fun blowing the dust out of my rifles & tenderizing my bony shoulder by sitting too high/leaning forward at the bench.

Temp sensitivity is an unknown. It's been 75-85* here the last few weeks & rarely goes below freezing. I'm still unsure about the RL16/17 thing. Data is kinda thin. I've very briefly tried 16 in a few other things (6.5x55 & 7x57) to get a feel for what it will do with less than stellar results so far. According to Sierra's data, 17 gives better speed, but the can here is apparently a slow lot, is about empty, & no more 1#ers to be found at the usual places. Not quite ready to spring for 5# yet.

The range is 1/2 mile down the road. It's one of the reasons I bought this house last year. I can almost smell the gunpowder when there's shooting, but cant hear it at all inside. The loading room is still under construction but usable. It's amazing that the chronograph still works after all this time.

 

[Nimrod84]

Thanks for the info / feedback 358.

I'm not terribly impressed by the Ruger American's - they have way too much stock flex for my taste, especially when using a bipod. I think their are a few routes to stiffen Tupperware stocks - notably adding carbon arrows or steel rods to the fore-end and bedding with JB Weld, Devcon or Marine Tex. https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads ... ck.123746/

I definitely envy you being 1/2 mile from the range! That is awesome.

For the 1 lbs cans I like to purchase locally and or add to a big online order due to the Hazmat fees. I'll see if I can get a big enough order to make the hazmat fee make sense and tack on a lb of the two powders.

Personally, I've found that IMR 4451 tends to act like it is a cross between H4350 and IMR4350. Good enough temp stability and ES for 500 yard shooting, but their is always 1 or 2 shots out of 10 that have a significant velocity variation. I'm not sure if it is my brass prep, the powder, crony issue... RL-22 and RL-17 seems a bit sensitive to temps for my taste. Honestly, any powder is fine for hunting as I've never shot game past 400 yards (and only twice) and I run RL-22 in a 280 Rem. The real issue I run into is the show and tells I end up doing every summer. I have four people lined up for a July 4th shoot, and have been doing a dog and pony show with a classmate that is getting his arsenal established since he got out of the Marines and an older Army veteran that is really wanting a suppressor since he lost his hearing as a helio aircrew member. It is a big loss of confidence when they have different drops every time they go shooting.

I stopped reloading when I went to college and got back into about 6 years ago... So about a 13 year hiatus, while I got my life in gear. In my experience, the reloading room is always "in process".

 

[SJB358]

I’ve found 16 to be very consistent across the temps. I use it in the 375 Improved and a couple others these days. To my brain it’s the Alliant version of H4350. 17 has been a go to for me since it came out. I’ve not had a problem with it in a slew of cartridges. It works very well in my 338 Win and again, a bunch of others.

It’s real slick in the AR since space is at a premium in the 6.5 AR10 it lets me load long 139’s without compressing them.