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- #21
6.5 Creedmoor out of 20" barrel
- Thread starter Nimrod84
- Start date
It's been a while. Some more experiments with RL16 in various cartridges showed some promise, & I'm really liking 4451 too. It does nothing much that 4350 doesn't also do, but is a good alternate. ES & SD with several warm loads in 280 Rem. & 150s were single digit. Thanks to SJB358s post above, curiosity won & I finally sprung for 5#s of RL17 & so far there are more questions than before, but that's a whole 'nuther topic.
I was cleaning out the closet trying to make some room for new bullets on the way & came across 15 very old Hornady 129 Spire Points in a box just taking up space. There was some RL16 already in the powder measure & 20 sized & primed Creedmoor cases in the corner of the bench. Five each were loaded at hard jam (about a square rifling mark on the bullet), .015 off, .030 off, & 5 from a new lot of 129s was loaded at about .045 off, all with a charge of RL16 (at about 2840fps) that seemed promising in the past. There wasn't much, if any, wind yesterday. Starting short & going longer the trend was shrinking groups with the 5 at hard jam clustered into a nice round .274" group.
Of course the newer bullets are a bit different than the old ones, but using the ogive to base length there are 10 loaded to see how much of a fluke this was along with 10 Sierra 130s seated the same way. Maybe tomorrow if it doesn't rain. The rifling is still like new & sharp, so at this length the round does stick hard when trying to unload the rifle without firing & needs a cleaning rod dropped in from the muzzle. Some fine tuning is needed.
I was cleaning out the closet trying to make some room for new bullets on the way & came across 15 very old Hornady 129 Spire Points in a box just taking up space. There was some RL16 already in the powder measure & 20 sized & primed Creedmoor cases in the corner of the bench. Five each were loaded at hard jam (about a square rifling mark on the bullet), .015 off, .030 off, & 5 from a new lot of 129s was loaded at about .045 off, all with a charge of RL16 (at about 2840fps) that seemed promising in the past. There wasn't much, if any, wind yesterday. Starting short & going longer the trend was shrinking groups with the 5 at hard jam clustered into a nice round .274" group.
Of course the newer bullets are a bit different than the old ones, but using the ogive to base length there are 10 loaded to see how much of a fluke this was along with 10 Sierra 130s seated the same way. Maybe tomorrow if it doesn't rain. The rifling is still like new & sharp, so at this length the round does stick hard when trying to unload the rifle without firing & needs a cleaning rod dropped in from the muzzle. Some fine tuning is needed.
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- #23
358 WCF,
Sounds like you are definitely on the right track! That is a very impressive group from you with that rifle! Please let me know how you made / make out on the re-test.
I got some shooting in over the 4th of July weekend, mid day was tough with wind and mirage. Early morning shooting provided good consistent hits at 1000 yards, but I couldn't get a single hit at 1075 yards. Morning shooting was damp / foggy, slightly coolish with "no wind" calls. I am pretty sure the loads were going trans-sonic somewhere in their and few extra FPS would cure it... Other thought was that the target being slightly higher on the hill was getting some bad updrafts / wind from somewhere that I couldn't make out.
I was pleased to find that my two loads - 38.5 grains of Varget and 42.2 grains of IMR4451 - were grouping together at 1000 yards. On the hot afternoons through, I did get a couple of rounds with hard bolt lift / ejector marks with both charges... 1 Varget and I think 2 with IMR out of about 25 rounds shoot in the sun with high 80's low 90's.
Per your and SJB's recommendations I have grabbed a pound of RL-16, RL-17 and H4350 to see what I can come up with. Things got a bit crazy before the 4th, so I didn't have time to play with them yet. I do think the RL's will solve my unproven speed problem at 1075 yards with the 130's and they should do good work with just about anything that a 6.5 creedmoor can shoot.
I'll end by re-stating that your 0.274" 5 round is wonderful!
Sounds like you are definitely on the right track! That is a very impressive group from you with that rifle! Please let me know how you made / make out on the re-test.
I got some shooting in over the 4th of July weekend, mid day was tough with wind and mirage. Early morning shooting provided good consistent hits at 1000 yards, but I couldn't get a single hit at 1075 yards. Morning shooting was damp / foggy, slightly coolish with "no wind" calls. I am pretty sure the loads were going trans-sonic somewhere in their and few extra FPS would cure it... Other thought was that the target being slightly higher on the hill was getting some bad updrafts / wind from somewhere that I couldn't make out.
I was pleased to find that my two loads - 38.5 grains of Varget and 42.2 grains of IMR4451 - were grouping together at 1000 yards. On the hot afternoons through, I did get a couple of rounds with hard bolt lift / ejector marks with both charges... 1 Varget and I think 2 with IMR out of about 25 rounds shoot in the sun with high 80's low 90's.
Per your and SJB's recommendations I have grabbed a pound of RL-16, RL-17 and H4350 to see what I can come up with. Things got a bit crazy before the 4th, so I didn't have time to play with them yet. I do think the RL's will solve my unproven speed problem at 1075 yards with the 130's and they should do good work with just about anything that a 6.5 creedmoor can shoot.
I'll end by re-stating that your 0.274" 5 round is wonderful!
Nimrod,
It was a successful day at the range yesterday. Wishing I had loaded some fouling shots, but 8 of the Hornady 129s went into .484" with the 1st 2 shots out of the group. The Sierra 130s did 9 into .660" with a flyer about 1/4" away. It could have been me. I cant get used to the heavier than usual trigger with the small lever safety thing (ala Glock) on it. It was mostly calm with a slight breeze from behind. Just enough to cool the barrels during the 5 gun rotation. I did 5 shot groups at a different target for each brand of bullet, alternating between Sierra & Hornady.
Everything else shot well yesterday too. Some primers pinholed 4 or 5 at the radius eating little holes in the bolt face of my 280 & I shot the stop skyscreen with one of the 44 mag pistol loads I was chronographing but, all in all a good day. There's a new skyscreen in the mail as I type. Maybe if the boltface is a problem in the future & needs to be cut a tad deeper to clean it up, the 280 will turn into an Ackley or a Gibbs. Then I can buy that Model 70 Featherweight 280 that caught my eye & not have any caliber duplication in the safe. A win/win if you ask me.
1000 yds. is farther than I've ever shot at anything so whatever I write will be conjecture. Logically ES is important at ranges beyond 300 or 400 yds. Looking back at my notes for 129 & 130s Varget & RL16 gave the best ES & SD #s of anything else tried. RL15 with 130s was almost as good as Varget with a touch slower velocity, but c. 25% better accuracy. RL16 also beat Varget for accuracy even before the OAL experiment & so far is about 75fps ahead in velocity as well (in my testing with neither powder maxed out). Larger samplings may well reverse some of this, but there seems to be a trend. You may be on the right track with RL16. I hope it works for you.
I wonder how a 140 & RL22, 23 or 26, or maybe even 4831 or 7828SC would work for you at long range with it's higher BC even if it starts out a bit slower. My 20" 8 twist 6.5x55 shoots the Sierra 140 MK point on between 2300 & 2600 fps. I wonder how much longer those 140 something ELDs are than the 140 MK (1.345"). The bullet makers dont seem to bother with ballistic tables in their manuals anymore, but there's an online ballistic calculator site somewhere on the web that I cant seem to find right now. It feels like dinner time. Happy long range experimenting.
It was a successful day at the range yesterday. Wishing I had loaded some fouling shots, but 8 of the Hornady 129s went into .484" with the 1st 2 shots out of the group. The Sierra 130s did 9 into .660" with a flyer about 1/4" away. It could have been me. I cant get used to the heavier than usual trigger with the small lever safety thing (ala Glock) on it. It was mostly calm with a slight breeze from behind. Just enough to cool the barrels during the 5 gun rotation. I did 5 shot groups at a different target for each brand of bullet, alternating between Sierra & Hornady.
Everything else shot well yesterday too. Some primers pinholed 4 or 5 at the radius eating little holes in the bolt face of my 280 & I shot the stop skyscreen with one of the 44 mag pistol loads I was chronographing but, all in all a good day. There's a new skyscreen in the mail as I type. Maybe if the boltface is a problem in the future & needs to be cut a tad deeper to clean it up, the 280 will turn into an Ackley or a Gibbs. Then I can buy that Model 70 Featherweight 280 that caught my eye & not have any caliber duplication in the safe. A win/win if you ask me.
1000 yds. is farther than I've ever shot at anything so whatever I write will be conjecture. Logically ES is important at ranges beyond 300 or 400 yds. Looking back at my notes for 129 & 130s Varget & RL16 gave the best ES & SD #s of anything else tried. RL15 with 130s was almost as good as Varget with a touch slower velocity, but c. 25% better accuracy. RL16 also beat Varget for accuracy even before the OAL experiment & so far is about 75fps ahead in velocity as well (in my testing with neither powder maxed out). Larger samplings may well reverse some of this, but there seems to be a trend. You may be on the right track with RL16. I hope it works for you.
I wonder how a 140 & RL22, 23 or 26, or maybe even 4831 or 7828SC would work for you at long range with it's higher BC even if it starts out a bit slower. My 20" 8 twist 6.5x55 shoots the Sierra 140 MK point on between 2300 & 2600 fps. I wonder how much longer those 140 something ELDs are than the 140 MK (1.345"). The bullet makers dont seem to bother with ballistic tables in their manuals anymore, but there's an online ballistic calculator site somewhere on the web that I cant seem to find right now. It feels like dinner time. Happy long range experimenting.
Cleveland48
Handloader
- Jul 28, 2015
- 1,972
- 165
You will like that sauer 100! I have one in 9.3x62, and it's one of the most accurate rifles I've ever owned. Dont leave out RL16 powder either. It has took the place of H4350 in all four 6.5 CM I've owned
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- #26
358 WCF, sounds like you have your Ruger pretty well figured out!
I'm a big 280 Rem and Ackley fan. I don't get much more velocity from the Ackley version, as I upload the Rem, but brass life is very good as is the accuracy.
I was hoping to get out with some RL16 and 17 loads this weekend, but it isn't going to happen. I'm glad to hear your good success with the 16.
The powders you mentioned would work okay with the 140's, especially RL-23 and 26, but they look like they would leave a bit too much powder ejecta for my tastes. I'm shooting with a can, so I'm trying to keep pretty close to full combustion in the barrel. If it was just a straight quest for speed and or range, I would be running things a little differently.
Cleveland, I like the Sauer 100's; especially the triggers. I originally picked one up in 30-06 as an impulse buy and about a month later the 6.5 followed me home when I saw it with a threaded barrel. Accuracy is great in both of them, but the 30-06 has been a bit of an annoyance due to it meeting CIP rather than SAMMI specs... But I knew it going in as my father has a Sauer 202 in 30-06.
I'm a big 280 Rem and Ackley fan. I don't get much more velocity from the Ackley version, as I upload the Rem, but brass life is very good as is the accuracy.
I was hoping to get out with some RL16 and 17 loads this weekend, but it isn't going to happen. I'm glad to hear your good success with the 16.
The powders you mentioned would work okay with the 140's, especially RL-23 and 26, but they look like they would leave a bit too much powder ejecta for my tastes. I'm shooting with a can, so I'm trying to keep pretty close to full combustion in the barrel. If it was just a straight quest for speed and or range, I would be running things a little differently.
Cleveland, I like the Sauer 100's; especially the triggers. I originally picked one up in 30-06 as an impulse buy and about a month later the 6.5 followed me home when I saw it with a threaded barrel. Accuracy is great in both of them, but the 30-06 has been a bit of an annoyance due to it meeting CIP rather than SAMMI specs... But I knew it going in as my father has a Sauer 202 in 30-06.
What's with the can, man? Must have missed that particular info earlier. How much quieter is it? I was under the impression that the sonic crack was louder than the muzzle report. Old wives telling tales may not always be reliable? Yeah, I like all of my Ackleys, but I do push them hard. That's where they work best. Not very much gain with the 338-06, but considerable gains are possible with the 22-250, 257, & 30-06. If primers stay tight for 5 or more firings & it's accurate the load is considered good.
There are some longer OAL 140s loaded up with both RL16 & 26, but they're down the line a week or two for testing & the kids are coming to visit for a week in there somewhere. The grand daughter wants to learn to shoot, cuss, & spit. Will start her with iron sights & work toward a scope if I can get one mounted on the old .22 that I learned to shoot with. Side mounts for an ungrooved JC Higgins (Marlin?) are hard to come by these days. There's actually a gun show happening this weekend. Maybe something will show up there?
There are some longer OAL 140s loaded up with both RL16 & 26, but they're down the line a week or two for testing & the kids are coming to visit for a week in there somewhere. The grand daughter wants to learn to shoot, cuss, & spit. Will start her with iron sights & work toward a scope if I can get one mounted on the old .22 that I learned to shoot with. Side mounts for an ungrooved JC Higgins (Marlin?) are hard to come by these days. There's actually a gun show happening this weekend. Maybe something will show up there?
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- #28
358,
That sounds like a good grand daughter, and a good setup for her. Teach her right! I'm afraid I can't help on the scope mounts though.
No problem with missing the can info, wasn't really focused on it as part of the setup... Had only been mentioned in passing - op had " It will be used with a 9" suppressor, which might add some velocity to the loads; but I don't think it would make the slower powders suitable..." and then songdog responded with his 9" can experience on a 20" barrel. Beyond that I don't think the can has been part of discussion... If you want details on the can, I would happily pm you the info / setup.
I can't give specifics on the dB reduction, but it is supposed to be about 30 dB. It really tames recoil and muzzle blast noise on everything I've shot it on, AR-15, 6.5 Creedmoor, 30-06... I'm not sure what it means but my 70+ year old mother fell asleep in a Tahoe that was about 8 yards away from the firing line when the 6.5 Creedmoor was fired about 20 times.
The down range sound signature really depends on the layout of the range. In a wide open field, I get very little sonic boom noise from supersonic bullets. If shooting in an enclosed area (berm, trees, side of building, etc.) than the reflected sound is noticeable to bad. At the 1000 yard range, the trees make the boom noticeable through plugs and muffs. At my local 100 yard range, the berms make it obnoxious. I think page 15 or so starts discussing sonic booms and how they need to be reflected back to the shooter otherwise they are a total non-safety-issue due to the inverse square law (diagram is on the 2nd to last page) - http://www.larsondavis.com/ContentStore ... iefing.pdf.
Have fun with the grand daughter!
That sounds like a good grand daughter, and a good setup for her. Teach her right! I'm afraid I can't help on the scope mounts though.
No problem with missing the can info, wasn't really focused on it as part of the setup... Had only been mentioned in passing - op had " It will be used with a 9" suppressor, which might add some velocity to the loads; but I don't think it would make the slower powders suitable..." and then songdog responded with his 9" can experience on a 20" barrel. Beyond that I don't think the can has been part of discussion... If you want details on the can, I would happily pm you the info / setup.
I can't give specifics on the dB reduction, but it is supposed to be about 30 dB. It really tames recoil and muzzle blast noise on everything I've shot it on, AR-15, 6.5 Creedmoor, 30-06... I'm not sure what it means but my 70+ year old mother fell asleep in a Tahoe that was about 8 yards away from the firing line when the 6.5 Creedmoor was fired about 20 times.
The down range sound signature really depends on the layout of the range. In a wide open field, I get very little sonic boom noise from supersonic bullets. If shooting in an enclosed area (berm, trees, side of building, etc.) than the reflected sound is noticeable to bad. At the 1000 yard range, the trees make the boom noticeable through plugs and muffs. At my local 100 yard range, the berms make it obnoxious. I think page 15 or so starts discussing sonic booms and how they need to be reflected back to the shooter otherwise they are a total non-safety-issue due to the inverse square law (diagram is on the 2nd to last page) - http://www.larsondavis.com/ContentStore ... iefing.pdf.
Have fun with the grand daughter!
Thanks Nimrod. I hope she enjoys it. Her mom used to pull the lever on the press for me when she was small & is a concealed carrier. No side mount at the gunshow, but there was this CZ 455 that called my name every time I walked by it. I fondled it once & it followed me home. The scope is mounted & boresighted by eyeball ready for the range. She'll have a 2-gun battery.
Your link didn't work. I poked around Larson Davis but couldn't find anything about cans. I was really just wondering what the fascination with the device actually is. I didn't realize it was a recoil reducer too. Cripes... There are threaded factory barrels, a $200 or so federal tax stamp for each legal one, the 300 Blackout/Whisper, they really aren't that quiet with regular ammo, & they're everywhere. Ay yi yi. I would miss the fire & the fury.
Your link didn't work. I poked around Larson Davis but couldn't find anything about cans. I was really just wondering what the fascination with the device actually is. I didn't realize it was a recoil reducer too. Cripes... There are threaded factory barrels, a $200 or so federal tax stamp for each legal one, the 300 Blackout/Whisper, they really aren't that quiet with regular ammo, & they're everywhere. Ay yi yi. I would miss the fire & the fury.
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- #30
Sorry about the link - not sure why it isn't working... Googling "http://www.larsondavis.com Firearm_Sound_Briefing" brings up the the article as #1 for me.
Congratulations on the CZ! I love the CZ 455's, I don't own one (yet) but I've been on a mission to find one at a gunshow for about 4 years with no luck. I've gotten to the point where I would settle for a heavily used 452 or a 457 even. Michigan is Marlin territory, tons of Model 60's and I own 3 of them... I really don't want to pay full retail and or FFL transfer & shipping on a 455 / 457 though - local stores don't really carry CZ. Jays in Gaylord and Clare carries them as does Cabela's but they are at MSRP or higher...
The big benefits of suppressors is that they reduce muzzle blast, recoil and can help tame barrel whip / aid in reducing flyers. I don't see many suppressors in my area, but the ones I do see are on 22lr's for random critter control / fun around the house with youngsters about or on bolt guns - normally 6.5's and 308's. The guys that use them aren't looking for them to be super quiet but to take enough of the edge off that shooting under a tin roof is pleasurable with double or a single layer of ear protection.
Honestly, I don't think I've seen a 300 black out in the wilds - 450 Bushmasters and 35 Legends abound though. Main goal for me is to use it while hunting and shooting under a tin roof. I'm often taking family and friends out and a lot of them don't take care of their hearing... Worst offender is my Brother-in-law refuses to wear anything with more than 8NPR plugs, and the second worst is my sister who gets headaches after a magazine of 9mm due to her muffs sitting on top of her hair rather than having the cups make skin contact and refusal to wear plugs.
Congratulations on the CZ! I love the CZ 455's, I don't own one (yet) but I've been on a mission to find one at a gunshow for about 4 years with no luck. I've gotten to the point where I would settle for a heavily used 452 or a 457 even. Michigan is Marlin territory, tons of Model 60's and I own 3 of them... I really don't want to pay full retail and or FFL transfer & shipping on a 455 / 457 though - local stores don't really carry CZ. Jays in Gaylord and Clare carries them as does Cabela's but they are at MSRP or higher...
The big benefits of suppressors is that they reduce muzzle blast, recoil and can help tame barrel whip / aid in reducing flyers. I don't see many suppressors in my area, but the ones I do see are on 22lr's for random critter control / fun around the house with youngsters about or on bolt guns - normally 6.5's and 308's. The guys that use them aren't looking for them to be super quiet but to take enough of the edge off that shooting under a tin roof is pleasurable with double or a single layer of ear protection.
Honestly, I don't think I've seen a 300 black out in the wilds - 450 Bushmasters and 35 Legends abound though. Main goal for me is to use it while hunting and shooting under a tin roof. I'm often taking family and friends out and a lot of them don't take care of their hearing... Worst offender is my Brother-in-law refuses to wear anything with more than 8NPR plugs, and the second worst is my sister who gets headaches after a magazine of 9mm due to her muffs sitting on top of her hair rather than having the cups make skin contact and refusal to wear plugs.
WHUT????
Heh... I worked on race car engines for a lot of years & muffs were just a pain & in the way. That & shooting pistol in the basement of the old police station could be why I cant carry on a conversation if a TV is on or there's other background noise. it was pretty handy when I was married though.
A guy I used to shoot with had a 20" 308 that was (sometimes) braked. Plugs & muffs weren't enough under the roof. A plain old 264 WinMag I had was in the same class with full tilt 85gr. varmint loads.
The club I shoot at now has all manner of folks from old geezers with heavy bench guns to young whippersnappers & ARs without a lot of sense & about everything between. There were 2 guys shooting very quiet suppresed ARs almost playing a song on a 200 yd. gong last spring. It was a pair of 300B/O. I was a little impressed. If an AR ever follows me home that may be the chambering... but it's so small for that mongo bullet.
Lots of projects to do & not much motivation today. Mo' coffee & going to accomplish something.
Heh... I worked on race car engines for a lot of years & muffs were just a pain & in the way. That & shooting pistol in the basement of the old police station could be why I cant carry on a conversation if a TV is on or there's other background noise. it was pretty handy when I was married though.
A guy I used to shoot with had a 20" 308 that was (sometimes) braked. Plugs & muffs weren't enough under the roof. A plain old 264 WinMag I had was in the same class with full tilt 85gr. varmint loads.
The club I shoot at now has all manner of folks from old geezers with heavy bench guns to young whippersnappers & ARs without a lot of sense & about everything between. There were 2 guys shooting very quiet suppresed ARs almost playing a song on a 200 yd. gong last spring. It was a pair of 300B/O. I was a little impressed. If an AR ever follows me home that may be the chambering... but it's so small for that mongo bullet.
Lots of projects to do & not much motivation today. Mo' coffee & going to accomplish something.
Well, I shot the 140/RL26 last Friday. These were Nosler 2nds with gray tips & a cannelure. Got to about 2800fps with 47 gr. & seated to just fit the magazine. Didn't bother to figure the jump yet, but they shot about 3/4" or so for 4 shot groups. Loaded another batch at different OALs to see if there's any improvement... maybe tomorrow or Friday if it doesn't rain.
The 140/RL16s got shot today & all 5 of the 4-shot groups did sub 1/2" starting at 2730 fps & moving up to 2865 @44 gr. OAL was .020" from touching. These bullets were tipped but I dont think they're Noslers. Different shape & cannelure placement. They were blems from Midsouth I got a few months ago. Orange tips... maybe Hornadys?
Both RL16 & 26 had single digit SD & 25 or less ES with the upper loads. RL16 got about 50 fps more speed, but that could change if I push them both a little harder. There's some more room, but these shoot better than expected & the speeds are more than adequate.
The rimfire is a whole new thing. I never had a new one before, so am unsure about breakin etc. I just took a pile of different ammo & started shooting at Hunter Class 100 yd. BR targets at 50 yd. Spent a pleasant afternoon at the range & shot about 400 rounds. It took about 40 or 50 rounds until it settled down enough to shoot groups. Maybe it was too clean? It liked the last orange box of PMC Zappers I had best of all. Aguila 38HPs were 2nd best & shot smaller groups at 100 yds than at 50. 'Tis a puzzlement.
The 140/RL16s got shot today & all 5 of the 4-shot groups did sub 1/2" starting at 2730 fps & moving up to 2865 @44 gr. OAL was .020" from touching. These bullets were tipped but I dont think they're Noslers. Different shape & cannelure placement. They were blems from Midsouth I got a few months ago. Orange tips... maybe Hornadys?
Both RL16 & 26 had single digit SD & 25 or less ES with the upper loads. RL16 got about 50 fps more speed, but that could change if I push them both a little harder. There's some more room, but these shoot better than expected & the speeds are more than adequate.
The rimfire is a whole new thing. I never had a new one before, so am unsure about breakin etc. I just took a pile of different ammo & started shooting at Hunter Class 100 yd. BR targets at 50 yd. Spent a pleasant afternoon at the range & shot about 400 rounds. It took about 40 or 50 rounds until it settled down enough to shoot groups. Maybe it was too clean? It liked the last orange box of PMC Zappers I had best of all. Aguila 38HPs were 2nd best & shot smaller groups at 100 yds than at 50. 'Tis a puzzlement.
