Barrel Length and Accuracy

[C Broad Arrow]

I am building a 308 deer rifle for use in dense bush. I do not think a deer has been shot at a distance greater than 100 yards in all of the years we have hunted this area.

My current rifle is a Remington Model 7 in 308. It has a 20 inch barrel. The new rifle is based on a Remington 700 action and was built to replicate the Model 7. For those wondering as to why I would do this, the answer is simple. I am left handed and the Model 7 is RH. I love the Model 7 but wanted one in LH. None were ever built, so hence the project. The new rifle has a new barrel from a local artisan with a well deserved reputation for barrel quality and accuracy.

I plan to reload for this rifle.

The $64,000 question to those that remember the game show of the same name, is what would I loose or gain by either retaining a 20 inch barrel length vs. reducing the barrel length to 18 inches?

I have used 150 grain e-tips, partitions, and just bought BTs to experiment with. The best load out of the Model 7 was Winchester 150 grain silver tips.

I am using Federal Brass, Federal primers.

Powders range from standard IMR to Vhit to Reloader.

Your wisdom on barrel length as well as any pet recipes would be most welcome.

 

[Elkman]

The rule of thumb is 40 - 50 FPS, per inch. If you are using open sights it may slightly effect you accuracy, because of the sight distance. The noise will be louder, the shorter the barrel. A faster burning powder may be required.
I can't think of anything else. Someone one else will be along very soon to add to my thoughts.

 

[C Broad Arrow]

Thanks Elkman. The rifle will be scoped if that is of any consequence.

 

[elkeater2]

Elkman, you must've hit send right before I was ready to. I'm saying a lot of the same things.

Accuracy - should be no different because of the barrel itself, and that was the question, right? I'm guessing you will get other pro/con answers. There will be an increase in muzzle blast, already plenty with a 20" barrel.
Accuracy for whitetails at <100 yards from a custom setup shouldn't even be a question with a custom build. All of us automatically think scope sights these days, but if you use iron the slightly reduced sight radius may in theory mean a little less accuracy.
You are coming close to building what has been developed in the last few years as a "scout rifle". Most are .308's, have short barrels, bolt actions, and often detachable magazines. Factory guns are being made by Ruger, Savage, and some others - some with barrels as short as 16.5 " in .308. There is also a forum ScoutRifle.org devoted to this design. Some barrel length discussion on there.
EE2

 

[C Broad Arrow]

Thanks EE2. I have gone to the site and registered.

Let me ask if there is an advantage to going to 22 or 24 inches? I guess what I am asking is there a "sweet spot" in terms of barrel length for the 308 calibre?

 

[elkeater2]

Thanks EE2. I have gone to the site and registered.

Let me ask if there is an advantage to going to 22 or 24 inches?

I don't think so in the conditions you say it will be used. 24" in particular in a bolt action can be noticeably less easy handling, carrying, getting in/out of vehicles. Especially carrying through the woods. I've discovered the long ones are also easier to stuff with snow or mud if a clumsy guy like me stumbles forward while carrying ready but muzzle down :lol: Sling carrying muzzle up, they brush on branches more easily, and knock snow loose too.

 

[dubyam]

I don't think you'll see much gain out to 250-300yds with a 22" barrel over a 20", and I also don't know that you'll see much gain in shortening to 18". You'll want to consider the balance of your right-handed Model 7, which you appear to like, and talk to your smith about how to maintain that balance when you go to the 700 custom job. If you shorten the barrel, it will move the center of balance back toward the buttstock a tad. Lengthening the barrel will move it forward toward the muzzle, of course. So if you're currently at 20" on the Model 7, and you like the balance, you'll want to talk to your smith about duplicating that in terms of weight and positioning. If you find the current rifle is not balanced correctly, now is the time to correct that. Try adding weight (lead tape is a good, non-marking way to do it, but coins or such, taped to not swing around will work) to your current rifle in different places to find perfection, then provide the rifle exactly weighted that way, to your smith so he can evaluate and duplicate it with the new rifle. He can do so by contouring the barrel appropriately, using the right stock and perhaps adding weight to the forearm or buttstock, and using the right barrel length. Once you get the balance right (with the scope you're going to use on the rifle, of course) the rest is just aesthetic for the 100yd distances you're talking. Even a 10" handgun barrel in 308Win will kill deer at 100yds, in terms of energy/velocity, so there's not a huge issue here, and any variant will work. I'd likely go 20", just because that's what I have in my 30-30WCF Win94, and it's pretty handy in the woods. But balance is the key.

 

[joelkdouglas]

I think if you like your M7 with a 20-inch barrel, it would be a good place to start with your M700.

I don't think you would notice much difference in the accuracy of either. In theory the 18-inch barrel could be more accurate, as a shorter barrel is stiffer than a longer barrel, of the same contour. But I don't think those two inches are significant.

I also don't think you would notice the difference in velocity between the two, unless you ran them over a chrono. And chronos don't kill deer.

If I were you, I would crown at 20 inches. If the balance were too far forward, cut to 18.

 

[C Broad Arrow]

The advice you all provide is an indication of why this is one of the best forums on the net for those serious about hunting. I had forgotten about how well the Model 7 is balanced in its current configuration and how it makes it easy to carry all day and to bring to shoulder. It now makes the finalization of the scope decision more important so that the rifle can be balanced properly. The barrel length will can then be adjusted accordingly as 18 or 20 will be more to ensure balance than impact on ballistics.

When the project is complete I will be back to post pictures.

I am still looking for more ideas on loads, especially for BTs.

Many thanks to all of you.

 

[C Broad Arrow]

Optics for this rifle...I am considering a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4 Firedot or a Trijicon 1-4 Accupoint.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
My Model 7 sports a Leupold 1.5-5. The gunsmith is a fan of the Trijicon.
Thanks once again!

 

[DrMike]

As an aside, it is easier to cut two inches off of a barrel than it is to stretch it two inches longer. Therefore, I'd start with a twenty inch barrel rather than starting with an eighteen inch barrel. My experience in measuring velocities from barrels than have been shortened is a loss of between 25 to 35 fps depending on the case volume and bullet weight.

 

[Elkman]

...I am considering a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4 Firedot or a Trijicon 1-4 Accupoint

I have a Vair- X III 1.5 X 5, on my 45/70 and it is a very fine scope for short to medium range shooting. I also own 2 of their 2.5 X 8, (one on a 35 Whelen), which are slightly larger but if you ever think you might need a little more scope, that would be a good choice.

 

[tjen]

What you my loose is the balance and feel of the M7 with its 20" barrel.
For what it worth I have a 700 short action rebarrel to 358win with a 20.5" barrel. I could deside on 20" or 21" so I split the differance. If I did it over I would go with a 21" barrel. I also have a marlin 336D 35rem in 18.5" barrel and would love to have the extra 1.5" for a even 20.

No need to go shorter for a great handling brush gun. The 700 is 40 1/4" and I think the 336D is 38".

My 358win barrel is a #3 Shilen and in 308win I would go with a #2 in there contour and 21".

 

[1Shot]

When you are thinking balance also take into count the weight of the barrel. The M7 has a thin light barrel so if you do not use the same profile on your new rifle and go with even a slightly thicker barrel it will add more weight. I have a Rem 700 short action with a 21 1/2" Heart tapered varmint barrel in an old Brown Precision composite stock with a Leupold VXII 3-9X50 in Leupold mounts and rings that I use for much of the same conditions you stated. I got this rifle from a fellow that had it built many years ago as a hunter class bench rest rifle. He started out with the barrel 22" but had to chop 1/2" off to make the weight class with the rifle. It has a tight neck chamber that I have to turn the case necks but it is a shooter with about anything that you put in it. It balances well and handles well. With the 308 Win you do not loose velocity when you shorten the barrel like you do with many other calibers. There would be maybe be 25 or 30 fps difference between a 18 and 20" barrel depending on the bullet and powder. I have killed hundreds of white tail deer in my life time. I used to do control hunting on a big farm in NC and helped my buddy take 100 deer a year for 15 years and I learned a few things about killing deer along the way. My standard deer load in the 308 has become the 125 gr Nosler Ballistic tip with 46 grs IMR 4895 in a WW case with a CCI BR2 primer. It runs right at 3000 fps from my rifle. From point blank to a little over 300 yards it has been a drop them in their tracks killing load about 95% of the time and those that don't drop in their tracks don't go 30 yards. The 125 BT is constricted as a hunting bullet not a varmint bullet. As long as you keep the impact velocity under 3000 fps it really works on deer. I use this bullet in all my 30 cal. firearms. I have used the 125 BT in my 30-30AI Contender pistol 14" barrel at 2670 fps for a few years to take about 20 deer from 30 to 118 yards and have yet to recover a single bullet. All have been through and trough and most through both shoulders. With my 308 rifle I usually find the bullet fully expanded just under the hide on the off side shoulder from point blank up to about 150 yards. Beyond 150 yards it has slowed down enough that it expands a little less and starts to exit. Everybody that I have gotten them to try this bullet and load has stuck with it. Good luck and good shooting.

 

[sask boy]

I would also go with the 20" barrel. At the distances you are going to be shooting there would not be any real difference in speed or accuracy.
A good quality bullet will make this rifle a very capable deer rifle.
I am looking forward to a range report with photos :wink:

Blessings,
Dan

 

[cloverleaf]

Going just with your headline..... There is a school of thought that says if everything else is equal, a shorter barrel should be more accurate. The theory being that the barrels harmonics vibrate over a shorter distance giving it a greater chance for the vibration or "whip" as some call it to come out in exactly the same spot as the bullet exits the muzzle more frequently. Now we are talking infinitesimal movement here, affected by powder and bullet and case variations, some of which we probably dont even know about. The key thing here IMHO is that everything else is NEVER equal.
SO.... as has been stated already, find a length and balance that fits you. You will shoot it better and have success. Tailor a load to make the Barrel "sing the tune it likes" and you will have an accurate rifle. I have two 2-7 Leupolds. They a just about perfect as far as I'm concerned. Just me going on.... Be fun to see your rifle when its done. CL

 

[Rem Jim]

For the use you describe i would go 18.5 " and change cartridge from a 308 Win to a 338 Federal ! :grin: JMO RJ

 

[dubyam]

I have two 2-7 Leupolds. They a just about perfect as far as I'm concerned.

It's no secret I'm no fan of Leupold. But I will say that the 2-7x28 on my Dad's old 243Win Browning BAR (an early 80s VariX II) is a great scope and really offers just about the perfect blend of magnification for 300yds and under. My old buddy CL is spot on with this advice. I'd opt for the 30-some-odd-millimeter objective version, like maybe the VX3 2.5-8x36 should be on your list?

 

[PJGunner]

I have several rifles in .308. My pet load is 49.0 gr. of W760, Winchester brass and standard primer and the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core. CAUTION: Max load start at least two grains below.
Velocity from the 18.5" barrel of my Ruger M77 RSI is 2550 FPS. Velocity from a 22" Winchester M70 Youth Ranger that I won in a raffle and restocked is 2610 FPS. This load was worked up for my one trick pony, the Ruger RSI. Change to a different 165 gr. or any other weight bullet and accuracy is gone right down the toilet. The load is safe in the two rifles mentioned but has proved to be way too hot for a custom Mauser I had built up with 23" barrel. (Just had to be different. :lol: ) I also have a Remington 660 with 20" barrel but for one reason or another I've never chronographed and loads for that rifle. The RSI is at best a 1.25 to 1.50" rifle. The M70 is sub-MOA with loads it likes.
If I were doing a build such as yours, I'd probably go with 20". It wouldn't be any longer than my 660 and that was a very comfortable in all it's configurations. I do like a bit of weight up front but so much that it ruins the balance.
Paul B.

 

[rick smith]

I normally shoot 150gr bullets in my 20" barreled 308s. Powders; W-748, IMR or H-4895, RL-15 and Varget. Last two I loaded for use 44.5grs Varget with 150gr Nosler Solid Base bullets, Win brass and primers. Rick.