Bullet failures, who has had one?

[super-7]

Sounds like a classic cup n' core jacket seperation to me. I have a buddy that will only shoot seirra GK's, every year he kills an animal and every year we recover a jacket or a core, very seldom both. He loves them and won't change I am wiating for the day he either looses an animal or has to put in several follow up shots. Like most have said before in the 243 and 6mm rem I load 100 gr PT, never worry about those failing. you did state that heart lung vitals were mush, if a bullet fragment had not punched thru the paunch, you may have had different feelings on the 100 gr hrndy bullet? After only using them on one animal and 2 rounds pretty hard to say not to use them at all. Your best advice to your friend was to keep the broad side shots or slight quater away shots. Confidence in your rig and gear is a definite plus, heading out with the thought of a bullet failure is probably not good charma.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I don't understand why otherwise reasonable people will choose a smaller caliber for deer hunting and then further hamper themselves by using a proven to be structurally insufficient bullet. There is nothing really nothing wrong with using a .243 or 6mm to kill deer with but why hamper the effort or diminish chances of success by using an inadequate bullet?

I guess that from what I have read on other forums that people are an odd type of thrifty (to the point of failure) that dictates not spending $35 on a box of bullets which would assure success. However, these same people will drive a $50,000 truck which get 15 miles to the gallon of gas but not spend $1.65 each on a hunting bullet.

 

[SJB358]

I don't understand why otherwise reasonable people will choose a smaller caliber for deer hunting and then further hamper themselves by using a proven to be strucurally insufficient bullet. There is nothing really nothing wrong with using a .243 or 6mm to kill deer with but why hamper the effort or diminish chances of success by using an inadequate bullet?

I guess that from what I have read on other forums that people are an odd type of thrifty (to the point of failure) that dictates not spending $35 on a box of bullets which would assure success. However, these same people will drive a $50,000 truck which get 15 miles to the gallon of gas but not spend $1.65 each on a hunting bullet.

Yeah, I am with you 100% on that one Charlie. With the availability of good bullets at a pretty reasonable cost, I can't see not using "premiums" for hunting. Granted I use a few BT's here and there, but for the real hunting, PT's and AB's seem to get the nod. Plus, with the ability to buy 2nds, I can stock up on the premiums for about the same as buying plain jane bullets. That is pretty easy math for me. Scotty

 

[Oldtrader3]

It really is Scotty, if a person handloads and can buy PT or AB sends for $0.75 apiece, why not use them?

 

[taylorce1]

It really is Scotty, if a person handloads and can buy PT or AB sends for $0.75 apiece, why not use them?

My friend used this particular Hornady bullet because IIRC he got 500 of them for buying the new Hornady press. If someone gave me 500 bullets I'm sure I'd try and work up a load using them, wouldn't you?

 

[SJB358]

It really is Scotty, if a person handloads and can buy PT or AB sends for $0.75 apiece, why not use them?

My friend used this particular Hornady bullet because IIRC he got 500 of them for buying the new Hornady press. If someone gave me 500 bullets I'm sure I'd try and work up a load using them, wouldn't you?

I would use them at first but if they didn't work out the way I wanted they would become yote bullets. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

I've hesitated to contribute to this thread. As Fotis indicated, this is a can of worms. However, I wonder if the term "bullet failure" isn't misleading. Bullets don't generally fail; they do what they were designed to do, which is transmit kinetic energy to game. If there is failure, it can almost always (essentially without fail) due to poor bullet placement and/or poor bullet choice for the game intended. By poor bullet placement, I recognise that sometimes matters are out of control of the hunter. Shooting at long range, it is possible that game will step forward and cause the bullet to strike farther back than the aim point. There is interstitial space between the lungs and the spine of many quadrupeds; should a bullet pass through this area, it is possible that it fails to generate sufficient hydrostatic shock to disrupt a major system of the animal. Wind gusts, especially at distance, can deflect a bullet's trajectory. All these can (and do) occur in the field. However, it is an unfortunate choice of words to attribute these to bullet failure. Choosing to shoot a thin-jacketed bullet on tough game is a choice the shooter makes. If a frangible bullet breaks up prematurely, it is not failure of the bullet, but failure to consider the game that was to be stalked. Often shooters don't want to damage meat, so they attempt a neck shot or attempt to avoid hitting the shoulder. Certainly a bullet hitting the spine will instantly drop an animal, but should the bullet pass through the esophagus, the animal may or may not show signs of injury as it runs off. An animal shot in the lungs will almost inevitably run, but it will die. However, an alarmed deer, elk or moose running at full speed can cover a lot of territory before hypoxia renders the animal unconscious. This is not a sign of bullet failure, but a physiological reaction to injury. No shooter should ever attribute such an instance to bullet failure. Again, bullet failure would indicate that a bullet that should expand fails to do so. However, unless we recover the projectile, we cannot say with certainty that there was no expansion. Perhaps bullet failure would indicate that a bullet that should hold together proved frangible and "exploded" on bone. Such instances are so rare as to be virtually unheard of. The laws of physics dictate that bullet design dictates maximum impact velocities at which the bullet will perform as intended. To push a bullet beyond that upper velocity limit is not a case of bullet failure, but failure of the shooter to consider the bullet selected. Fascinating subject.

 

[Oldtrader3]

You certainly have a point regarding bullet placement, DrMike. I was implying that the bullet has to be placed into an area of the animal's anatomy which is going to destroy the major organs (lungs, heart, major arteries) needed to hasten quick death of the target animal.

I chose not to use a smaller than .25 caliber for deer sized game or larger. However, women small adults, teens and people with disabilities often have to shoot a rifle that they can shoot accurately and without fear of recoil. The .243 is a very competent caliber that under most hunting conditions will kill deer sized game efficiently and certainly with high accuracy. When I used a .243 for deer hunting, I limited my shots to about 200 yards in order to assure that the energy level and velocity are still high enough to expand the bullet fully and do the job at hand.

Bullets can and will hit organs or bone which deflect them into non critical areas of the body cavity, so really the only thing that we can control is by using a projectile that has the integrity to remain intact until the bullet has passed through sufficient depth of the body cavities to deliver cavitation and penetration that will usually result in a quick death.

 

[SJB358]

You certainly have a point regarding bullet placement, DrMike. I was implying that the bullet has to be placed into an area of the animal's anatomy which is going to destroy the major organs (lungs, heart, major arteries) needed to hasten quick death of the target animal.

I chose not to use a smaller than .25 caliber for deer sized game or larger. However, women small adults, teens and people with disabilities often have to shoot a rifle that they can shoot accurately and without fear of recoil. The .243 is a very competent caliber that under most hunting conditions will kill deer sized game efficiently and certainly with high accuracy. When I used a .243 for deer hunting, I limited my shots to about 200 yards in order to assure that the energy level and velocity are still high enough to expand the bullet fully and do the job at hand.

Bullets can and will hit organs or bone which deflect them into non critical areas of the body cavity, so really the only thing that we can control is by using a projectile that has the integrity to remain intact until the bullet has passed through sufficient depth of the body cavities to deliver cavitation and penetration that will usually result in a quick death.

Well said Charlie. I try to make the same call, but having seen how well the 243 works, I have to submit the 243 works, and does work well when used like you stated Charlie. I try to use the best bullets I can find (Nosler most of the time). My son's 243 has brought a few hunters into our world and I was happy to do it.

 

[Oldtrader3]

That is the point! Every young shooter that we can help start in shooting and/or hunting is a victory for the continuation of our sport with future generations. Somehow my (2) daughters were brainwashed in college and now believe that guns have some evil purpose and somehow have an evil just for being what they are. Fortunately, my (3) sons came out on the right side of this issue and all three are shooters and two hunt. A small victory but one, none-the-less.

This despite massive effort on my part to educate these girls about guns and their legitimate role in our lives and importance in keeping our freedom safe from evil and powerful people (i.e. George Soros) who are trying to persuade others to rewrite our Constitution in order reflect their personal and distorted vision.

 

[elkeater2]

Outstanding picture, Scotty! That's in a frame I hope...

We've had a .243 in the family for a long time, originally bought for my wife. I've got some of the really old Hornady 100 grainers, and they always worked well. None of the shots were marginal or weird angles and maybe that's why. When I saw the success 6mm Remmy had (or his son had actually) using e-tips on elk, I thought that is the way to go. Odd nobody has mentioned them yet on this thread. E-tips will be our next buy.

EE2

 

[DrMike]

Scotty, that is a great picture. I never get tired of seeing young men and women with their first game.

Charlie, your girls may yet come around.

Part of the education that must be included is training young men and women to learn proper bullet placement and the humility to admit the limitations of the firearm and the shooter, working within the limitations.

 

[SJB358]

Thanks fellers. I had alot of fun hunting with the young ones. I really look forward to hunting with them again this year! Like Mike said, shooter training is the way it sets in. My daughter is not enamored with shooting or hunting, but I try to be patient and realize that not everybody is a nut like me with hunting and shooting. Scotty

 

[taylorce1]

Bret,

I hope to have a similar picture of me with my daughter in a few years, she is showing intrest in hunting and shooting. This year she accompanied me on my pronghorn hunt and she seemed very interested in every aspect. She was even willing to hold the legs while I field dressed the animal.

Oldtrader,

I've got several rifles that she'll be able to hunt with when she is old enough in 3+ years to go out for big game. She'll carry the one she can shoot the best, of course that might mean re-stocking a few of my rifles for her to try. I guarantee the .243 will be one of the rifles for her to choose from, along with a .250, .25-06, 6.5x55 or .300 Savage.

My biggest complaint about this bullet is it didn't perform to the expectations the manufacturer places on it. Plus even though it is only 100 grains that is a heavy for caliber bullet when we talk about the .243 Win, and a cartridge I'm sure this particular bullet was desnigned for. I've had core seperations before when using standard bullets and never considered that a failure as long as the core was able to penetrate to the off side. Hornady advertises this bullet as having a hardened core that will hold together, I'm thinking it was so hard that it caused it to shatter after impact. That said the bullet did destroy all the vitals in fact it turned everyathing in the chest cavity to Campbells Chunky Soup.

 

[Oldtrader3]

My grandson who is only 7 years old now has a 6.5x55 CZ 550 with 125 gr Partition handloads which I loaded for him to start him out on when he is ready. My wife's grandson is 17 years old and just bought my .280 Rem. as his first deer rifle but he has been hunting with a 12 gauge, 3 inch magnum for ducks for 3 years now and has shot several of my rifles at the range. He is not recoil sensitive. The .250 Savage is a nice little cartridge for shooting deer with as well and I used one for a few years when I was younger.

There seems to be many camps of opinion on what constitutes good bullet performance. I also use the Hornady Interlock in one rifle as my main load for that rifle. However, I also use a backup load with a 210 gr Partition for that rifle to use on elk. You may wish to do more testing of that Hornady bullet in wood or in water jugs to satisfy yourself about what occurred with your jacket separation in game and whether jacket separation is a typical response with this bullet.

 

[JD338]

I had a couple of bullet failures.
Nosler 7mm 140 gr BT at 150 yds. Entered deer on the point of the shoulder and was recovered between the last two ribs on the off side.The deer dropped in its tracks.
It failed to exit the dead deer.

Nosler .458 cal 300 gr BST at 70 yds. Entered the back of the rib cage hitting a lung, liver, guts and through the off side hind quarter stopping under the hide.

It also failed to exit the deer.
Use the right bullet for the application and put it where it needs to go and the bullet will do its intended job.

JD338

 

[Guy Miner]

I don't think I'd call those failures JD... Not at all! :mrgreen:

 

[FOTIS]

I am one of the most anal people I know when it comes to bullet performance.
This is my philosophy. I want the bullet to enter, expand, penetrate and preferably exit--this one is not a deal breaker.

Now, there have been cases where I killed the animal and failed get the expansion and adequate penetration.
Did I kill the animal? Yes. But unfortunately the bullet performance killed my confidence in that bullet!

Case in point. My buddy Roy used a savage 99 in 308 win. 150 grain Sierra Gamekings at 2800 fps. He smacked an antelope buck at 150 yards right behind the shoulder. The buck traveled 2 feet...vertically! DRT. When it was skinned the whole jacket was found on the outside fur in the entrance wound. It had opened up and the lead core was let loose and blew up inside. No exits. Inside was of course soup.

Same thing can be said about the Matchking performance--_ Many use them but they almost always look like fragments afterward---substandard for me.

Did the bullet fail? In my eyes yes! Why? Because it's performance deemed it unusable to me from that day on. I will never use that particular bullet on anything but coyotes or ground squirrels.

BTW my buddy Roy had that bullet in a little ziplock baggy displayed in his gun shop here in Cheyenne. Made a hell of a conversation piece.

 

[tddeangelo]

I have had one full-on failure and a few near misses. The full failure was a Sierra GameKing in a 6mm Rem. The deer was taken three weeks later with massive infection from the bullet strike, which left a wound about 3/4"-1" deep and 1.5" across. The shot hit just behind the shoulder about 1/2 way from top to bottom.

The others have been disintegration of Hornady interlocks, mostly on close shots, and the deer were all killed cleanly. I don't like that level of bullet disruption, however, which is why this year I'm shooting AB's, GMX's, and Partitions (depending on caliber). It's also why I almost never go light-for-caliber.

I can think of probably 6 to 10 instances of interlocks coming totally apart, but the deer were lights out dead. The one that really put me over the brink, though, was I shot a doe at 397 yards. She was quartered much more than I thought. The bullet entered through her pelvis, made it to the liver. Thank God. The fragments shredded her liver, bone fragments and bullet fragments. Basically, she took the equivalent of a load of No4 buck to the liver. She went down, tried to get up, and in 10 seconds it was done.

Had I been shooting the GMX I now run in that rifle, it would have made it to the lungs, I'm sure. Now, would she have run? Would she have been dispatched as quick? Dunno....but I do know that a bullet breaking at 400 yards meant I never used one again unless the load was a slower load. And I will never touch another GameKing as long as I live. I'm sure I'm being silly, but I won't have that experience again.

 

[taylorce1]

Pretty much have found from most people using the bullet on other forums that the results my buddy had aren't typical. One guy on the Campfire has used this exact bullet to take a few elk. I've already told my buddy that I'd just shoot up the rest of the bullets and look for something different to shoot at game.

The only real problem I have with this whole thing is it didn't live up to manufacturers specs. Exits aren't necessary but preferred like POP said. If the bullet doesn't exit I want to find a larger recognizable piece than one that weighs 10-15% of the original.