Can't decide (updated Browning BLR 358 Win)

[Europe]

Gerry, the cost is definitely more and that is never good, but they are very sweet handling rifles.

Gerry and Scotty, I have just received word from our resident 348 user that Northfork also makes a 200 grain for the 348. I was told that they are using 230 Northfork in one of their 348,s and 250 wood leigh in the other one and that both work well. They are using Reloading International in Oregon to ship the Northfork to them, as the Northfork supplier in Canada never has anything.

Scotty, I know you are a bullet guru and wanted to tell you that I found out that the DG "tests" that were conducted used Northfork, Nosler, Woodleigh, Swift, Barnes, GSC, Rhino and Alaska Bullet works in their comparisons, with the Northfork bullet looking the best. However, it was stated that the animal would not be able to tell the difference between them, but the Northfork edged out each of the others in each test category. Have you used Northfork's expanding solids Scotty. They seemed to have made an impression on those who have tried them.

my apologizes Gerry, I have no intention of hijacking your thread, just wanted to advise Scotty on the additional information that I obtained

 

[SJB358]

A 250 gr Woodleigh at 2300 fps would be a thumper.

It is a wicked bullet Gerry and 2300 is a cinch to get from a 71 carbine as well.

Gerry, the cost is definitely more and that is never good, but they are very sweet handling rifles.

Gerry and Scotty, I have just received word from our resident 348 user that Northfork also makes a 200 grain for the 348. I was told that they are using 230 Northfork in one of their 348,s and 250 wood leigh in the other one and that both work well. They are using Reloading International in Oregon to ship the Northfork to them, as the Northfork supplier in Canada never has anything.

Scotty, I know you are a bullet guru and wanted to tell you that I found out that the DG "tests" that were conducted used Northfork, Nosler, Woodleigh, Swift, Barnes, GSC, Rhino and Alaska Bullet works in their comparisons, with the Northfork bullet looking the best. However, it was stated that the animal would not be able to tell the difference between them, but the Northfork edged out each of the others in each test category. Have you used Northfork's expanding solids Scotty. They seemed to have made an impression on those who have tried them.

my apologizes Gerry, I have no intention of hijacking your thread, just wanted to advise Scotty on the additional information that I obtained

Nope, never used such a bullet for hunting animals. I am sure they are good though.

Why did the Northfork come out on top April? I'd love to read about it if you have an article or something you could point me at. That is a hearty line up of excellent bullets and for them to be on top they had to be mighty impressive.

 

[5shot]

If you could find one of these CZ 550s floating around in 9.3x62...

 

[truck driver]

I have been looking at various 338 caliber cartridges and rifles chambered for them.
One in particular was the Ruger 338RCM. Out of a 20.5" barrel it is nipping on the heals of the 338Win. With the muzzle brake removed it still only generates around 20ftlbs of recoil energy with a 200gr bullet and would make a dandy close quarter bush or camp rifle. Hornady makes brass and it is available at Midway.
With a 24" barrel it might exceed the 338Wm but Ruger has choose not to offer it in a longer barrel option what is probably a mistake on their part.
Had I not gotten the 338 Win I would be interested in one of these.

 

[5shot]

I thought about the 338WM for this type of gun, but it is really so much easier to keep the calibers in the safe to a minimum. I don't have any 338's, so I may end up going with another semi custom in 358 Norma Mag when I get around to it. 20"-21" Barrel, hooded front sight, express rear and a 2.5X Leupold. Something for up close and personal.

I am certainly not against a 338 or 9.3, and if the right rifle showed up at the right time, I'd be inclined to go that route. You can buy a lot of brass, bullets, powder and dies for the cost of a new tube and custom open sights!

BTW - there is a guy over at 24HCF that has a Nosler 338 Outfitter NIB for $1200 and change.

 

[DrMike]

Gerry,

I will gladly surrender the .358 NM dies and brass to you for what I paid for them (nothing). That cartridge is a bear stopper, for sure. The 9.3X62 is a neat cartridge that is reasonably easy to load. Those big .366 bullets will put the hurt on about any bear you might encounter. The .358 Win is available if you have a hankering for that cartridge. My choice is a Model 94 in .356 Win. I have three, and I can guarantee that charged with either 220 grain Speer FN or a 250 grain Kodiak, it will take the fight right out of a bear. These rifles were still selling for ~$450 a couple of years ago. They are going for a little more today, but not that much more here in Canada. Again, I might have something that you would like if that were to tickle your fancy.

 

[gerry]

A 356 or 358 Win would be mighty interesting, I'll have to phone you sometime soon to chat..............

 

[hunternyny]

Gerry, Dr Mike, Scotty

As far as which caliber is better, not which rifle, but caliber, how much difference is there between the 348, 356, and 358. Dr Mike likes the 356, Scotty likes the 348, as a hunting rifle, I am curious what would tend to make one want one over the other--thank you

 

[gerry]

Gerry, Dr Mike, Scotty

As far as which caliber is better, not which rifle, but caliber, how much difference is there between the 348, 356, and 358. Dr Mike likes the 356, Scotty likes the 348, as a hunting rifle, I am curious what would tend to make one want one over the other--thank you

Pretty much no difference between them but everyone has their favourite. I would be inclined to pick the 358 Win because of the ability to shoot a wide variety of 35 calibre bullets including spitzers plus being able to make brass from 308 Win if needed. No flies on the other two though............

 

[DrMike]

Of the three cartridges, the .358 is the most likely to survive--and it isn't healthy. No one makes the .356 anymore, though Winchester does a run of brass about every three years. No major company is chambering the .348, so it is in the same category. There have been a few runs of the .358 recently. Any of the three will work well at moderate ranges. I wouldn't hesitate to use either the .358 or .356 out to ~250 yards. My longest shot with the .356 was about 125 yards. Ditto for the .358. However, they certainly will reach farther. I have two .358 Wins--a BLR and a Ruger Hawkeye. The BLR will consistently deliver 0.3 MOA with a 200 grain TSX. The Hawkeye will yield a consistent 0.5 MOA with both the 225 grain Sierra SBT, 225 grain Nosler PT and with 200 grain Hornady FTX. One .356 will deliver sub-MOA with 220 grain Speer FN, 250 grain Kodiak FN or the 250 grain Hawk FN. In another .356, I see sub-MOA loads with the 200 grain Hornady FTX and with the Speer 220 grain FN.

 

[hunternyny]

Getty, Dr Mike, thank you

and excuse me if this is a dumb question, but based upon what Dr Mike described, why would one not just buy a 45/70, which are still being produced in lever actions, as well as cases and bullets. A 45/70 would certainly be big enough for bear protection, if the 348, 356, 358 is. thanks guys and maybe I am over simplifying this, just curious

 

[gerry]

The 45-70 is a great round and is a lot easier to find. For me I like the 35 calibres but the 45-70 is a practical choice and good for what you are thinking about. The cheap 300 gr bullets wouldn't be good for big bears but there are lots of good choices out there for the 45-70, It's quite versatile.

 

[DrMike]

Gerry nailed it. I like the 35 calibre cartridges. An individual armed with a 45-70 is in good shape if compelled to face an agitated bruin. However, I'm content with the 35 calibre rifles.

 

[Blkram]

A quick comparison of Hornady ammo for the 358 Win vs 45/70:

358 Win 200 gr Interloc at the muzzle is 2475 fps w/ 2720 ft-lbs of energy, and at 100 yards drops to 2180 fps w/ 2110 ft-lbs

45/70 325 gr FTX at the muzzle is 2050 fps w/ 3032 ft-lbs of energy, and at 100 yards drops tp 1729 fps w/ 2158 ft-lbs

45/70 250 gr Mono at muzzle is 2025 fps w/ 2276 ft-lbs of energy, and at 100 yards drops to 1616 fps w/ 1450 ft-lbs of energy

358 = better ballistics (higher BC) over longer distances, but not the issue in this thread, 358 in BLR, Model 88 and 99 have detachable magazines for quicker reloading

45/70 = better smacking power due to larger frontal area, SD of both cartridges with these bullets almost identical (.321 vs .323), but are mostly slower to reload with tubular magazines, requiring heavier bullet; but when dropping to lighter bullet for a more "fair" comparison of closer matched bullet weights you see performance drop off considerably, as will penetration as SD drops to .171

Just points for consideration and may answer hunternyny's query a little better

 

[hunternyny]

thanks Gil, I appreciate the work and explanation. I also did a little more research and just looking at ballistics and bullet availability only, it is hard now for me to understand Cheyenne's love affair with the 71, but I have never even held a win or Browning 71, plus it appears from reading that it is both difficult and I am quoting "sacrilegious" to scope one.

I thank you guys and will now let this thread return to Gerry's original question without further interruption from the peanut gallery

 

[SJB358]

I am with the others, don't have a 356 Win, but I do have the 348, 358, 444 and 45-70. They are all a little different but range wise they all sorta fit in the same slot to my mind. The 348 is peep sighted while all the rest where optics/sights as a back up.

The M71 is a great handling rifle and seems to be more comfortable to me to shoot than just about any of the others. It points like a shotgun and even with the steel butt plate doesn't hurt me.

As Mike alluded to, the 358 can and will be around forever since it's parent is the 308. It doesn't get much easier really.

 

[Vince]

For an up close bear gun I’d be inclined towards a lever gun with a good recoil pad.

I think you’ll find that the recoil is more of a shove instead of the Magnum anything’s obnoxious slap. Load it with Goex and it’s pretty tame while still being a good thumper on the receiving end.

Between all of the choices mentioned, for fast up close handling, a lever is hard to beat and the 45/70 is a pleasant round to shoot if you load it right.

Vince


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[345 kv]

I went with a TC Encore with a 20 inch 45-70 barrel for a camp gun. The rifle is about 36 inches long has a peep sight and fiber. I load it with a 405 gr bullet with a stiff load of IMR 4198.

It replaced a 375 Ruger with 20 inch barrel.

 

[salmonchaser]

I've struggled with this question several times. There are many trade offs, obviously Gerry is aware.
Having packed at one time or another a : .577; .45/70; 450 Bushmaster, 375; .338; 8MM Remington; .30-06; and a variety of 12 gauge shotguns, portability and point ability, assuming an appropriate caliber, are the two most important factors.
When you're hunting carry what ever you want, the rifle is primary to the mission. When you're fishing, camping, hiking the rifle is secondary at best.
I learned very early not to leave my gun on the beach while I fished. It is quite unnerving to be thirty feet from your pack and rifle, turn around and see a grizzly sniffing your gear. Short barrels, lighter weight, fixed sights certainly add to the portability factor. Point ability, at the distance that using this rifle will occur you must have a rifle that fits like a good shotgun. A fast follow up is great but if your first shot doesn't stop or turn him you would be hard pressed to hit him again.
Reliability, nuff said. Amazing how much abuse a bear gun takes. Bouncing around in boats, dropped out of the float plane into six feet of water, sand, mud salt spray, rain and bits of brush. Probably why 870 Remington is so popular with guides.
All that being said the tiebreaker for me would be pointablity, be it a 338 Ruger or a BLR or a 71. I want those sights to be there every time.



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[wildgene]

What would you do and why? I wouldn't "overthink" it, I'd just get a box of 250gr. NP's & see where they printed @ 50yds. w/o changing my scope, but Scotty's right, you need a .325 WSM BLR Takedown in .325 WSM, loaded up w/ some 250gr. Woodleighs, or maybe a LH Short Trak might be a real good option...