General hand loading questions

[roysclockgun]

Good day!

The purpose of my hand loading is not to get world class shooting out of my rifles, but to have fun at the range and use the rifles for hunting. That said, I do strive for tight groups.

I have replaced a 29" barrel on a Model 1908 German made Mauser, 7x57mm. The twist is one in 8 1/2". Will this barrel group better with heavy bullets (175gr.) or lighter bullets (139gr.)? I have only tried 139 gr. bullets and accuracy is mediocre at 2" at 100 yards.

Second question: I have been using RCBS Case Lube-2 on my cases. Every tenth case, I put a tiny bit of the lube on the mouth to keep the sizing button from galling as I pull it out of the case mouth. Afterwards, I tumble the cases in corn cob media for three hours and I do not detect any residual lube inside the cases. Am I wrong to believe that I am getting enough lube off the cases, inside and out, so that the lube will not affect accuracy?

Third question : I use a Lyman case trimmer, chucked to an electric drill to trim cases. No matter how hard I try to "feel" when the length is right, I get ten thousandths variance in the trimmed case length. How much will this affect accuracy? The locks on the trim shaft are tightly affixed to the shaft after I get the desired length determined.

Thanks for any help that you may render in giving me answers,
Steven

 

[Elkman]

On your twist rate I think you are a little fast for the lighter bullets. This is what I got from the Shilen Barrel site I am thinking you need to move up to a longer heavier bullet.

#7mm/.284
- 8" for all bullets-customer discretion 180 gr. VLD
- 9" for bullets heavier than 140gr.
- 11" for bullets up to 140gr.
- 12" special for high velocity #

I have used case lube as you are and "don't" tumble after loading and have never had a problem. Make sure your fingers are clean of all oil and grease prior to priming.

I don't think your length is an issue with accuracy. I have had three different 7X57's and never found any on them to be particulary accurate.

Good luck I am sure that you will more info!!!!

 

[JD338]

Most common twist for 7mm is 1:9 or 1:9.25. The 1:8 twist would be for heavier (longer) bullets but should also work well with 139-140 gr bullets. I would give the 140 gr BT a try as it is a very accurate bullet.

Case lube shouldn't make a difference. I tumble my brass prior to sizing. I use a rag to wipe clean the brass,

Trimming shouldn't matter, especially for what you have described in your intentions.

JD338

 

[DrMike]

Steven,

The 7 X 57 is a great cartridge, and should give you good service with the 139/140 grain bullets. Jim is correct that a 1:9 or 1:9.25 is more common, though one does see some 7 mm barrels that are 1:10. It may be that the accuracy issue is more related to freebore than it is to twist.

I do not use Case Lube on my cases any more, opting to use Imperial Wax and Imperial Neck Lube or Motor Mica for the neck. A three hour tumble is not necessary. Often, I used a paper towel twisted to wipe the neck, finding that more than sufficient to remove any residue. I never experienced a problem with powder contamination. If you choose to tumble, thirty minutes would be more than enough.

I should think that unless you are crimping, a variation of ten thousandths or less would not affect accuracy.

 

[Ol` Joe]

What the others have said.

I think the difference in case length after trimming could be caused by heat expansion from using the drill. You get some build up due to friction though ten thousandths is a extremely small amount of difference to worry about.

All in all every thing sounds like you`re doing just fine.

 

[roysclockgun]

Thank you, to everyone who contributed answers, thus far.

I have loaded up two different loads for 175 and two for 150. I will shoot Tues. and report.

I do use 140gr. AccuBond in my old Browning falling block 7RemMag, with wonderful results on deer and pigs. I had tried the 139 Hornady Interbond, just because I had a couple boxes of those bullets.
I did read that the orginal 7x57 fame as a hunting round, came from use with the 175 bullets.

I realize that I cannot expect the 7x57 to turn in accuracy as good as does the 308Win, but I would expect it to mirror what 30-06 will do. I have owned a number of 30-06 rifles, over the years, that would deliver 1" groups at 100 yards. If I can get that with the 7x57, I will be satisfied.

On another issue: I have not stuck a case in a die for years. I just did that, with one of these 7x57 cases, so I need to send it to RCBS, unless someone knows a home remedy for stuck cases.

Steven

 

[DrMike]

Steven,

The "stuck case remover" that is sold by a number of firms (RCBS, Redding, etc.) works quite well in removing the case. It happens to all of us, so this is a good addition to any hand loader's equipment.

 

[SJB358]

The best investment I have made recently was the addition of Imperial Sizing Wax on JD's and Mike advice. It is very slick stuff and has made the overall operation alot easier for me. It requires so little, that a can will likely outlast me! Plus, I think it builds up a little wax in the actual die, that really makes resizing very smooth. So far that was really helped me out.

I just wipe my cases down with a paper towel after sizing. I tumble before sizing though. Sounds like you are on the right track. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

I have in my reloading inventory Hornady One-Shot lubricant, RCBS Case Lube and a few other lubricants. Day in and day out, however, I use Imperial Sizing Wax. Scotty is right about the lubricity of the stuff. I use either motor mica or Imperial Neck Lube as a dry lube for the neck of the case. I can't honesty say that I have never stuck a case with this material, but it has reduced the incidence to such an unusual event that it is a shock when it does happen.

Steven, I do believe the 7 X 57 is capable of some fine groups. You are correct that the cartridge should deliver at least as good accuracy as the 30-06. Though the original loading used heavy for calibre bullets, I tended to load mine with 139/140 grain bullets.

 

[roysclockgun]

Update on range test : Everyone's input was appreciated.
I loaded 175gr. SP bullets, PPU, made in Serbia, with two different IMR4350 loads. One with 43gr. the other, 45gr., which is max as shown in my Lyman manual. Both produced the best groups yet, at 1 1/8" at 100 yds., with six rounds fired per group. These groups are far better than the ones shot with: 139gr., 140gr., 150gr. Obviously the older, original twist of 1- 8.5" is more suited to the longer, heavier bullets, just as was suggested by others, above.
I am not making excuses for myself, or for the rifle, but the original two stage military trigger is a very creapy, 100 year old trigger. The scope is an old Montgomery Ward marked 3-9x32 scope, made in Japan, that I had lying around my gun room for years. The mounts are some inexpensive, aluminum types that I pulled off a trade rifle and have kept around. I am convinced that with a better trigger and scope the groups would be inside 1" at 100 yds.
In retirement, I do not golf, as that would eat into my hand loading time. Building up this ruined military rifle into what is a very passable deer rifle, has been fun. All told, I have right at $200 in the rig, and when I walked down to pull down my targets today, I observed that the other men shooting to my left and right were not turning groups even close to what my old Mauser was doing. Even after more than fifty years of gunning, I am still learning how to tighten up groups and I am never dissatisfied when some new gem of an idea surfaces for me.
Thank you all and Best regards,
Steven

 

[DrMike]

Steven,

The old Mauser won't break the bank, and it is fun to make them shoot again. It sounds as if you have done a "bang up" job. I tend to agree about the trigger and the glass. You can't hit what you can't see. Glass does make for better shooters.

 

[roysclockgun]

I have the Timney trigger for the Mauser around here somewhere. I need to travel north and visit my son in Pa. for a couple weeks. When I get back, I will work on getting the trigger installed and maybe pull a Burris target scope off one of my other rifles to check out the old Mauser.
While I have a number of other rifles that shoot much better than I can perform, I like to hear different music too.
I doubt that one hunter out of a hundred really gets the performance from his rifle that he could get, if only he knew the basics of range work. I see them every Oct., coming out to the range to put half a dozen rounds through a rifle that has not been off the rack since last November. Most are happy to hit anywhere on a standard 100 yard target. I have, in the past, helped them get on the paper, by the simple act of pulling the bolt and looking down the bore, to see where the rifle is pointing, in relationship to the where the scope is looking. Some are amazed to learn any simple trick that helps them print on the paper target.
I was lucky to have my uncle and my dad taking me ground hog shooting, as soon as they could get rifles, after WWII. My uncle had a Model 70 Winchester, in 220Swift. Learning to shoot under those guys got me into seeking good groups.
Steven

 

[1Shot]

One other little thing thing that will improve your groups. Get you a Lyman inside the case flash hole de-burring tool. By de-burring where the flash holes were punched through the primer cup into the inside of the case were it left little burrs sticking up around the flash hole you will get a more consistent ignition of the powder and it will tighten up your groups. I have been hand loading for over 30 years and this is the best thing that I have found that will really increase accuracy. The other thing that I have found the will increase accuracy in many of the old military rifles with long throats is to use a LEE Factory Crimp Die on the loads. I love and collect these old war horses. I built a hunting rifle out of a barreled action from a 95 Mauser in 7X57 for a friend. It had a perfect bore and someone had cut the barrel back to 22". I cut the bent over bolt handle off and made a new one and welded it on and converted the military trigger from a two stage to an adjustable single stage trigger. Learned how to do this from a gunsmith book. Drilled and tapped the action for Leupold scope mounts. Put a Tasco 3-12 scope on it. Put it into a composite stock and glassed bedded it. Loaded up some 154 Hornady SP with 45 grs IMR 4350 went to the range to zero it and it would shoot 3/4" groups all day at 100 yards. I just love it when a plan comes together.

 

[roysclockgun]

"1 Shot", thanks for sharing the recounting of bringing that old Mauser back to life, and the suggestion regarding trueing up the flash hole.

The only reasons that I can see for the 7x57mm not being more popular are, one, concerned with it's age : Old issues in firearms get left in the dust, especially by newby shooters who rely to much on what the gun writers are reporting on this month.....And two : After WWI and WWII, inexpensive US military rilfes were offered in this country, chambered for 30-06. Most people who own a rifle in 30-06 see not reason for any other chambering in their personal battery of rifles. Therefore the strange nominclature, involving millimeters was largely ignored by the American shooting public, until very recently.
If ballistics charts mean anything at all, the 7mm bullets fly better than do the 30cal bullets. 30cal bullets do not appear to outshine 7mm bullets until one gets into the bullet weight range over 175gr.
Given the more modern bonded bullets offered today, I see very little need for bullets over 175gr. for hunting any game animal available in N. America. With that in mind, the 7x57mm cartridge's time has come, more today than 50 years ago.
The bullets of the 7mm, as mentioned, fly better. The recoil on of the 7x57mm can be loaded to be appreciably less than comparable 30-06 loads. And the variety of game that can be hunted, using 7x57, is the same as with 30-06.
Perhaps the super magnum craze is beginning to subside, as more shooters realize that they really do not care for the attending excess recoil that goes along with those overblown cartridges. Add to that the fact that many shot groups are enlarged when super magnum rifles are used. It is no secret that when one looks at groups printed, the ones shot with lighter recoil ammo will generally be smaller, given equal quality fo the firearm and ammo used, coupled with equal shooting skills. This was shown when soldiers in basic training began shooting 7.62x51mm cartridges, instead of the old 30-06. Range scores went up!
Both the 7mm08 and the 280Rem, were introduced as the greatest thing since sliced bread and both have sold well. The 7x57 falls between these two and there is little that either of them can do better than the 7x57.
I wager that some gun reports will surface soon, "discovering" the 7x57mm cartridge and singing it's praises to an entirely new generation of shooters.
Steven