Let's Take A Breath!!!!

[bullet]

I would like to see the NNC (No New Cartridge) and let's all take a breath and the manufactures focus on good fit and finish of their products demonstrating some craftsmanship and quality. I know, money, sails and such, so it ain't going to happen!!!!!

Why? Because marketing people, market. Advertising people advertise. So whether they work for Remington or Ruger or whoever, their job has very very little to do with anything concerning the customer's NEEDS, but rather what can they convince the customer that he must have to be happy and up to date. Forget about making quality firearms, because the "Paradigm" has changed. Gun manufactures are following much of the marketing philosophy of today, where things have changed from providing actual NEEDS to producing and advocating WANTS as if they WERE NEEDS.

Many of us are perfectly happy with the 30-06 or the 300 Win Mag or the 338 Win Mag but the "new" guys see their role as selling the "new" cartridge to the new buyer and in order to do that they need to design, produce and advertise the newest and latest to the newest and latest people involved in the buying guns as they create a want and pass it off as a need.

We, old farts or guys that are really really knowledgeable understand the basic limits to the product and understand that the short mags or the Ruger Proprietary cartridges aren't fundamentally better than the old cases.

The new CEO's of the gun manufacturing world sees their role as selling the NEW product to the new buyer.

It seems as though there is a fundamental problem of losing the battle and the effort will become gratuitous. I believe there is a change in the demographics of our society in the urban as well as the rural realm. There is a percentage change in that as the population grows, there will be fewer and fewer hunters and shooters, regardless of what the manufactures do.

That is why I said it is a gratuitous effort because it will reach a max and then collapse on the gun manufactures. If there is not good craftsmanship in the rifles and quality to attract those of us who will remain faithful in purchasing guns, the manufactures will have nothing to allure us with to their products.

Frankly, I think this whole new thing based on getting us to want instead of giving us what we need, is a train wreck waiting to happen.

 

[FOTIS]

Business is the name of the game buddy.

 

[Guest]

Extremely well said. 100% correct. Nosler has succumed to the game as well. I hate to see it. As Pop said business may be the game but as you said focusing attention on new and not maintaing quality in the older tried and proven is going to cause those who do that to lose business in the long run. They will likely be rich by then and in the Bahamas or elsewhere enjoying the money acquired from playing the game during the short period that it may last though.

Of course we all realize new calibers sell new guns, new brass, new dies etc. which keep the gun industry afloot. And even I like to try something new every once in a while..... but what about continuing to maintain and improve the aquality of all the products.

I am looking for the best products to use in the meantime. Nosler isn't king as they used to be. There brass is now pathetic. The first few batchs were great. Is Norma consistent in quality?

 

[Anonymous]

Extremely well said. 100% correct. Nosler isn't king as they used to be. There brass is now pathetic. The first few batchs were great. Is Norma consistent in quality?

Have you contacted us about a specific problem? I know a lot of guys on here that had a problem and it was fixed promptly. If you are having an issue with any of our products, please message me and we will take care of it today.

 

[ldg397]

I noticed in my nosler book the 300 wsm are tested with 26" barrels which I don't think you can even buy on a factory rifle and 300 win listed with 24" which is also fairly uncommon. Coincedence?

 

[Big Squeeze]

There is no reason why a gun maker cannot introduce new cartridges, while at the same time concentrate effort on refinements and improving their existing product lines, which they should always be doing anyway. I don`t believe that a competent gun maker while introducing new cartridges, suddenly concentrates less on quality control with their already existing lines.

The R&D dept, is a seperate dept than is the manufacturing depts.

Using Ruger as an example!.........Sure!......Before the introductions of the 300-338 RCMs, the 375 Ruger, the 416 Ruger, there were enough cartridges in those calibers on the market to satisfy the need.

So why did Ruger and Hornady team up to introduce new cartridges and rifles when there were already enough on the market? Simple! Creative innovation along with less stagnation, leads to increased revenue via increased sales. And they saw a need that they knew hunters and shooters would be very receptive to. They were proven to be right.

In my view, the last thing any good company should do is to sit back and "take a breath!"

Lack of stagnation along with new innovating helps businesses to grow and increase their sales.

In fact, I`d even like to see the following cartridges and rifles added into production based on a (fully sized) non belted 375 Ruger case.

30/375 Ruger...............called the 300 Ruger Mag
338/375 Ruger.............called the 338 Ruger Mag
350/375 Ruger.............called the 350 Ruger Mag

For example! In looking at the powder capacity of a future 350 Ruger Mag and comparing that to say the other popular 35s such as the Whelen and the 350 Rem Mag, a 350 Ruger Mag should easily blast right past both of them.

Assuming that good R&D and thorough testing prove additional benefits, and if Ruger feels there is a need to pursue any one or all of the above three, then I say go for it, while taking "deep breaths" along the way.

This should also apply to any other gun maker.

 

[30-338]

I noticed in my nosler book the 300 wsm are tested with 26" barrels which I don't think you can even buy on a factory rifle and 300 win listed with 24" which is also fairly uncommon. Coincedence?

If you look Nolser they use custom barrels for their rifle data Hodgdon just list barrel length and Barnes uses custom barrel also. Speer/Horrnady factory rifles Lyman use a Univerisal Receiver plus factory rifles.

I'm gald to see the new calibers and I think part of the problem is the PR hype plus the internet experts. This vs that or the old caliber are just as good or better.

We have choices you don't need to buy one if you don't like. I don't own lots of calibers not because I don't like them just don't have a need. For me having a 300WSM/270WSM just add a deer/elk rifle and since I got the 270WSM had a 30-06,270 and 257Wby build.

I remember all the hype on the 300mag, why didn't they pick the 30-338mag instead, it has a short neck, etc,etc. I had my first custom build in the 60's was 7mag and I sure haven't figure out why anyone is worried about what someone else is shooting vs what they are using. I'm almost 68 and the story line is the same over the years caliber change is all.

 

[bullet]

Extremely well said. 100% correct. Nosler has succumed to the game as well. I hate to see it. As Pop said business may be the game but as you said focusing attention on new and not maintaing quality in the older tried and proven is going to cause those who do that to lose business in the long run. They will likely be rich by then and in the Bahamas or elsewhere enjoying the money acquired from playing the game during the short period that it may last though.

Of course we all realize new calibers sell new guns, new brass, new dies etc. which keep the gun industry afloot. And even I like to try something new every once in a while..... but what about continuing to maintain and improve the aquality of all the products.

I am looking for the best products to use in the meantime. Nosler isn't king as they used to be. There brass is now pathetic. The first few batchs were great. Is Norma consistent in quality?

I do not believe Nosler falls into the same bunch I was mentioning.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Bullet, I think that train wreck at least partially happened. I personally believe the introductions of the Short Mags contributed to the down fall of the U.S Repeating Arms New Haven plant. I remember reviewing their offerings, and in many instances a rifle would be offered in one, maybe two classic caliber, then all the new short mags. I couldn't hardly find a .270 Winchester, made my Winchester, unless it was a short mag. Yes, they had bought their own marketing hype, and lost tought with their customers. Consequently I bought from someone one else. I wonder how many other dads did something similar when purchase rifles for their kids?
Some of their problem was also the LACK of innovation. Sure they invented all these fancy new cartridges, but they were building them on the same equipement they were using since 1965. Compare this with Sako, who invented a method to hammer forge rifleing and chamber all in the same process, Ruger's move to investment casting, and the Beretta upgrading their plants to modern CNC equipement.
Some of the problem was poor planning. They should of moved to a non-union, gun friendly state years ago.
Once again, we can get our Winchesters. They are made in a new, state of the art plant, on modern CNC machines, and the first two calibers offered were the 30.06, and the .270 Winchester.

 

[blacktailhunter]

Some would love to blame the WSM's for the closure of the New Haven plant. This has been discussed in detail way too many times. With or without the introduction of new cartridges, USRAC would have shut down the New Haven plant. Remeber why they couldn't just start building M70's in SC immediately following the closure? The labor agreement didn't permit it until after expiration.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Some of the problem was poor planning. They should of moved to a non-union, gun friendly state years ago.

YEP! Ultimately it was the labor agreements that killed 'em. And the guns made in SC are not made by USRAC, but FN. I didn't think it was the Labor agreement that caused the laps. Olin still owned the Winchester name, USRAC was using it under license. After New haven closed, FN bought the rights. (Please correct me if I am wrong).
In general, I'm agreeing with bullet. Poor planning, poor marketing, and a failure to understand the customer you core customer has been the downfall of more then one business. [/quote]

 

[old #7]

I dissagree with your statement bullet.
I used to own a 1969 chevy c20 pick up with a 350 and a 400 tranny.
Great truck nothing wrong with it at all. Very strong and dependable.
That truck was all I NEEDED.
But... Chevy decides to build new models every year with something new and exciting that makes you WANT a new truck. Why???
Why not improve on the last years model and offer more creature comforts. If they keep making the same thing every year they will loose sales to other companies that offer different and beter things.
This is CLASSIC free marketing and capitolism.

Take a look back 20 years in firearms manufacturing then flash forward to todays new rifles and cartridges. Sure there are some crappy new cartridges out there like the wssm's but what about the new 17 hmr, The RUM family, how about Savages new accu trigger and stock.
I agree that there are some great classic cartriges out there that have stood the test of time but, without competition and new thinking we would have never seen the 30cal of 1906, the 45 acp, the browning a5 shot gun,
the colt m-16 and ar-15 and on and on.
I say if you like your old rifles so much then why do you want or for that matter need to buy a new one.

Us reloading guys are probably the ones driving the craze for a new and exciting rifles anyway. We are always looking to find the fastest and most accurate load. We push and tweek our rifles to wring out the last bit of velocity and accuracy. We even experiment with wildcat chambers to gain the upper hand on the guy next to us at the range.
I think it is hard to blame the manufacturer for producing a firearm or any other product that we want but don't necessarily need. Besides if a manufacturer produces something that we don't want he won't be in business for long.
Heck .... maybe we should only have one firearms manufacturer. That way we won't want a better product. I definately don't need my NCR 280 AI. I could have all I NEEDED with my Ruger M77 280 but, I the heart wants what the heart wants.

If I remmber correctly Winchester was also relocating out of the U.S. for legal and liabitity reasons. Remember the push to sue the firearms industry out of business for manufacturing guns that were used by criminals in crime?

 

[old #7]

Just look at this and tell me it ain't our doing.
http://noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8063

 

[bullet]

Just look at this and tell me it ain't our doing.
http://noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8063

I repented :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: