Myth of the MOA hunting rifle

[Songdog]

Ultimately, one has to actually shoot.... in field conditions, from field rests, under varying weather conditions, and out to the ranges they intend to hunt (or shoot competitively). Sitting at a bench, shooting “sub-MOA” groups, doesn’t translate well to real world shooting. Is it a good baseline, sure.... but it can also be a red herring.

Bench rest Group measurements and averages don’t really mean much... when it comes to hitting stuff at 389 yards, across a small canyon, in a 12mph wind from 5 o’clock, with your rifle laid over a pack while you’re laying in the mud. None of that is a reflection of the “accuracy” of a rifle.... but it has everything to do with the shooter running said rifle.

 

[Thebear_78]

Sgt H is reporting what a lot of snipers have done in the past. The need to keep and maintain log books of how a rifle and the rifleman shoot in all conditions. The test he prescribed is very much valid for log-book

I agree keeping a dope book for your particular rifle can have merit, but that is not what the OP was suggesting. He was describing a one shot cold bore challenge.

A sniper is not doing single shots, they are aggregating all data from all their shooting across varied conditions. By averaging multiple shots across a range of time you can get a statistical trend where shooter error can be averaged out giving a better indicator of rifle performance albeit still effected by individual shooter errors. Throwing out the outliers mitigates shooter error to a degree.

The one shot cold bore challenge accentuates shooter error. Every shot is an outlier. The shooter is tested more than the rifle.

Regardless of the OP intention we can still salvage a bit of usefulness from this post.


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[fightthenoise]

Ultimately, one has to actually shoot.... in field conditions, from field rests, under varying weather conditions, and out to the ranges they intend to hunt (or shoot competitively). Sitting at a bench, shooting “sub-MOA” groups, doesn’t translate well to real world shooting. Is it a good baseline, sure.... but it can also be a red herring.

Bench rest Group measurements and averages don’t really mean much... when it comes to hitting stuff at 389 yards, across a small canyon, in a 12mph wind from 5 o’clock, with your rifle laid over a pack while you’re laying in the mud. None of that is a reflection of the “accuracy” of a rifle.... but it has everything to do with the shooter running said rifle.

The title of the post is Myth of the MOA hunting rifle, not Myth of the MOA hunter.

 

[Songdog]

You should read the post... not just the title. OP talks about shooting sitting, and prone off the pack, and in inclement weather. None of that has jack to do with whether or not your rifle is “sub-MOA”.

Truth is, “sub-MOA” hunting rifles grow on trees nowadays.... and “sub-MOA” shooters proliferate the internet. The two are not mutually exclusive..... just because a guy can’t hit the broad side of a barn at 200 yards, shooting off a set of sticks.... doesn’t mean his rifle isn’t a “sub-MOA” rifle.... it means he’s a crappy shot. Conversely.... I’ve seen guys clobber all sorts of targets.... for a long ways... with rifles that were much closer to “2-MOA” rifles.

Dudes that can shoot.... make average shooting rifles appear very “accurate”. Guys that can’t shoot.... will always have a tough time hitting stuff... even with true “1/2-MOA” rifles.

 

[fightthenoise]

You should read the post... not just the title. OP talks about shooting sitting, and prone off the pack, and in inclement weather. None of that has jack to do with whether or not your rifle is “sub-MOA”.

Truth is, “sub-MOA” hunting rifles grow on trees nowadays.... and “sub-MOA” shooters proliferate the internet. The two are not mutually exclusive..... just because a guy can’t hit the broad side of a barn at 200 yards, shooting off a set of sticks.... doesn’t mean his rifle isn’t a “sub-MOA” rifle.... it means he’s a crappy shot. Conversely.... I’ve seen guys clobber all sorts of targets.... for a long ways... with rifles that were much closer to “2-MOA” rifles.

Dudes that can shoot.... make average shooting rifles appear very “accurate”. Guys that can’t shoot.... will always have a tough time hitting stuff... even with true “1/2-MOA” rifles.

What does any of this blathering have to do with anything? No one is arguing you can’t buy great shooting rifles for cheap. No one is arguing that you need to practice with your rifle. Good shooters shoot good, thank you for that.

The point of this thread is to make it clear that OP’s protocol for measuring how well a rifle shoots is impractical and bordering on garbage. When I buy a used rifle I want to know how well it shoots off bags from a bench. I don’t care if he shot a respectable group over the course of the summer of ‘93 with his legs behind his head. If it shoots off the bench, the rest is up to me, and that’s my business.

 

[Thebear_78]

I guess some people can’t get their head around the difference of MOA rifle and moa shooter. The OP used specific language of MOA rifle.

If I had to guess I think the OP is a troll profile, only 8 posts in several years. I wouldn’t be surprised if songdog and the OP use the same keyboard. I’ve had songdog on ignore for a long time, I guess I’ll add the OP to that list


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[Songdog]

So funny.... ignorance is bliss.

I firmly have my head wrapped around the concept of MOA rifles vs. MOA Shooters....

 

[gbflyer]

Given the OP’s parameters, I don’t think I could cut the mustard. Would be fun to try though. No reason to get up in arms (ok bad choice of words) over it. No one will lose their birthday one way or the other. Hahaha.


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[1100 Remington Man]

My standard has always been in a big game rifle is three three shot groups and add them up for a average. For a Varmit rifle its five shot groups.
For what it's worth I took my Model 70 .264 Win Mag and for three three shot groups it averaged .665 inch.
What does all this mean I went from Iowa to the Tundra North of the Brooks Range and fired one shot at a Caribou at just under 300 yards and made a perfect shot and it fell into its tracks.
So to Me it's a MOA Rifle or a one and done Caribou at least with Nosler 130gr AB