not happy with 180 BT's
- Thread starter Blammer
- Start date
- Oct 30, 2004
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Why 5 shot groups? I would rather shoot 3 , let the barrel cool and shoot another three. Some of those groups look great If you stopped at 3. Could it be you're heating up the barrel?
The pattern at the top of the first target, which is marked 44gr don't look all that bad to me. It's my opinion, that group of shots would be tighter if the shooter was doing his part. In other words, are you doing everything the same for each shot. Breathing, trigger squeeze, sight picture, rifle layed in the bags on the same bearing points. If your not doing the exact same thing for each shot, your groups will open up.
- Thread starter
- #5
thanks for the suggestions on the 3 vs 5 shot groups.
I always shoot 5 shot groups, barrel heating never has dramatically affected accuracy for me in many of my guns, It could I'm sure but then I'd get a different gun. :wink:
Personally I have a better baramoter with 5 shot groups. It helps me with finding when I have 2 that stick together and then 3 together for 2 seperate groups vs having two together and one somewhere else and always makes me wonder was it me? When in the past I have found that it was something else that I corrected to bring them in line.
as far as holding the same, trigger squeeze, sight pic etc...
Here is a group I shot with my other rifle that same day. Only had 3 bullets left so 3 shot group...
I always shoot 5 shot groups, barrel heating never has dramatically affected accuracy for me in many of my guns, It could I'm sure but then I'd get a different gun. :wink:
Personally I have a better baramoter with 5 shot groups. It helps me with finding when I have 2 that stick together and then 3 together for 2 seperate groups vs having two together and one somewhere else and always makes me wonder was it me? When in the past I have found that it was something else that I corrected to bring them in line.
as far as holding the same, trigger squeeze, sight pic etc...
Here is a group I shot with my other rifle that same day. Only had 3 bullets left so 3 shot group...
- Nov 4, 2004
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Blammer,
3 shots test the rifle/load, 5 shots test the shooter.
Try Varget with a couple different primers as well as COL. If this doesn't work, try a couple different powders. You might suprise yourself with a nice shooting laod.
JD338
3 shots test the rifle/load, 5 shots test the shooter.
Try Varget with a couple different primers as well as COL. If this doesn't work, try a couple different powders. You might suprise yourself with a nice shooting laod.
JD338
- Thread starter
- #7
Blammer,
I agree with you about the five-shot groups. If I shoot three and they're all together, then no harm, no foul. That almost never happens, though, and then the "two in, one out" leaves me questioning which is the "real"group. "Four in, one out" tells me something, as does "three in, two out," and I just can't get that level of assurance with three shots. Occasionally, I get "five in," and that just means my errors compensated...
I could see three, three-shots groups, all to the same point of aim, though, and maybe even two three-shot groups, but all my history of five-shot groups would then not be comparable.
Jaywalker
I agree with you about the five-shot groups. If I shoot three and they're all together, then no harm, no foul. That almost never happens, though, and then the "two in, one out" leaves me questioning which is the "real"group. "Four in, one out" tells me something, as does "three in, two out," and I just can't get that level of assurance with three shots. Occasionally, I get "five in," and that just means my errors compensated...
I could see three, three-shots groups, all to the same point of aim, though, and maybe even two three-shot groups, but all my history of five-shot groups would then not be comparable.
Jaywalker
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- #10
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- #11
moreloader
Beginner
- Dec 20, 2005
- 105
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I would never jump 1 grain at a time. At the most move 2 tenths between groups. If I am looking for Accuracy I usually go with 1 tenth. You may have jumped your best combination.
As far as the 3 shot vs. 5 shot, it depends on the rifle. If the barrel is light and floated like most modern hunting rifles, you should stick to three and invest in a quality set of bags for your bench. If you are using a bull barrell fully bedded you can shoot 5. I have seen hunting rifles print 2 or 3 together and then drop or raise an inch and then go back after a few more. When I am working with a 5 shot out of a hunting rifle I always try to leave the bolt back and empty for 1 minute between shots and keep my ammo cool. If you are loading the ammo in the magazine the gun will warm the cartriges. If you have a chrono you can look for yourself. I have seen this account for 75 fps between 1 and 5.
As far as the 3 shot vs. 5 shot, it depends on the rifle. If the barrel is light and floated like most modern hunting rifles, you should stick to three and invest in a quality set of bags for your bench. If you are using a bull barrell fully bedded you can shoot 5. I have seen hunting rifles print 2 or 3 together and then drop or raise an inch and then go back after a few more. When I am working with a 5 shot out of a hunting rifle I always try to leave the bolt back and empty for 1 minute between shots and keep my ammo cool. If you are loading the ammo in the magazine the gun will warm the cartriges. If you have a chrono you can look for yourself. I have seen this account for 75 fps between 1 and 5.
- Thread starter
- #13
thanks for the 2 tenths of a grain jump suggestion.
In my smaller capacity cases like 22 hornet or 223 rem 2 tenth will show a considerable change.
in the large capacity cases 2 tenths is not enough change to show me anything.
2 tenths of 44 grains is 1/2 a percent change in powder charge.
2 tenths of 12 grains is 1 and a half percent change in powder charge.
1 grain of 44 grains is roughly 2 and a quarter percent change.
I think with a 2 percent change I will most likely get really close to a good load.
If I feel so inclined I'll take two "good" groups and try a charge half way between the two to see what i yeilds.
In my smaller capacity cases like 22 hornet or 223 rem 2 tenth will show a considerable change.
in the large capacity cases 2 tenths is not enough change to show me anything.
2 tenths of 44 grains is 1/2 a percent change in powder charge.
2 tenths of 12 grains is 1 and a half percent change in powder charge.
1 grain of 44 grains is roughly 2 and a quarter percent change.
I think with a 2 percent change I will most likely get really close to a good load.
If I feel so inclined I'll take two "good" groups and try a charge half way between the two to see what i yeilds.
I have a Remington 700 "Classic" in 8x57. The load that really shoots in it is the 180 Ballistic Tip and 52 grains of Vihtavuori N-150. The 200 AccuBond [took a moose with this last fall] I use Norma 204 with. I get 2800 with the 180 BT and 2650 with the 200AB. Both these load shoot consistently under 1" for three shots at 100 meters. Regards, Eagleye.
G
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Just wondering, Eagleye, what is the published data on the 180gr over N150? I am currently working with 185 Remingtons bought in bulk to break the rifle in (a classic just like yours) and would love to know if I can achieve 2800fps or so with another option. I am currently using 748 and Acc2520, but have not finished working up either, so I don't know if I will get 2800 or not. I have never tried the Vihta powders, so I would appreciate any advice on them.
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- #16
G
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It's not that the velocity is most important. I place accuracy at the top of the list, and then work down from there. But right now, I am more than happy with the accuracy, and it seems to get better as velocity increases for this rifle with loads I have worked up so far. I will know shortly if that holds true for the 2520 and 748 loads as well. That said, if I can eek out a little more velocity without a decrease in accuracy, that is almost always an added benefit in my shooting and hunting situations. Also, as I said, I have not tried out the Vihta powders, and am interested as I have heard a couple of people say they are terrific. Of course, I don't believe there is a magic bullet, pardon the pun, for any combination, but if there is a better combination, I want to try it out.
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- #18
G
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IMR4895 gets me 2740 give or take, and I have not tried Varget. I am working a little blind, as the data is not available from anyone for these 185's, so I am using 180gr data and watching for pressure signs. I am considering starting to measure casehead expansion to determine what the loads are really doing. Overall, there really isn't much difference between 2740 and 2800, but the long and the short of it is this rifle gets more accurate the faster you push it so far, so I am looking to test that theory.
Blammer,
I agree that a larger case requires more than a couple of tenths of powder change to make a difference. OTOH, I haven't read about any of your changes to a couple of important factors: seating depth and primer. IMO, these are much more likely to produce change than simply changing powder type.
My approach to developing a load is to move through the lower velocities quickly, but safely, since I won't be using the very lower velocities for hunting. When a grain or two south of max, I adjust the seating depth from my starting point of 0.030", and I find that 0.003" - 0.005" changes at a time can make a significant difference. When I get the group under an inch, I quit.
If this doesn't work, I'll change primers, but that's pretty rare. I bought a 1,000 CCI Benchrest primers just so I wouldn't have to worry about this component for awhile. FWIW, for extruded or flake powders, I find Magnum primers generally yield lower velocities and less accuracy.
Jaywalker
I agree that a larger case requires more than a couple of tenths of powder change to make a difference. OTOH, I haven't read about any of your changes to a couple of important factors: seating depth and primer. IMO, these are much more likely to produce change than simply changing powder type.
My approach to developing a load is to move through the lower velocities quickly, but safely, since I won't be using the very lower velocities for hunting. When a grain or two south of max, I adjust the seating depth from my starting point of 0.030", and I find that 0.003" - 0.005" changes at a time can make a significant difference. When I get the group under an inch, I quit.
If this doesn't work, I'll change primers, but that's pretty rare. I bought a 1,000 CCI Benchrest primers just so I wouldn't have to worry about this component for awhile. FWIW, for extruded or flake powders, I find Magnum primers generally yield lower velocities and less accuracy.
Jaywalker
