Old Propellant = Big Difference

[roysclockgun]

In the process of working up a deer hand load for my wife, who has only been shooting for less than a year and is 5'2" and weighs 120, I wanted a charge that would be effective, but not give her too much recoil with which to deal.
The 33gr. of IMR4064, for 95 gr. Nosler Bal. Tip in 243Win., seemed to fit the bill out of five loads tested. She was getting two inch groups at 100 yds., which while not great, is likely accurate enough. Also the trigger pull is so heavy on her Handi-Rifle, that I could not do any better with that load.
The 8lb. can of IMR4064 was over ten years old. When I bought it, I was shooting military shoots, using 30-06 and had a good load, using 4064, but I had stopped those shoots and so, the 8lb. can is still being used up, albeit, near the bottom. Just for the heck of it, I loaded the last twenty rounds for her using a new can of IMR4064. Her groups shrunk to near 1" immediately, with no other differences noted, save for the change in propellant cans. I am surprised that the age of propellant can cause that sort of difference in accuracy.
The only source that I have to estimate MV is my Lyman 47th Ed. Reload Manual. Estimating the 100 gr. bullet from the 26" barrel, shown in the book, I figure that I am close to that, using 95gr. Nosler Bal. Tip. fired from her 20" barrel. The MV come out at 2714 fps, which should be plenty fast to cleanly kill deer in the area where we are hunting. Shots are mostly inside 100 yds. on deer and pigs. What do you think? Is this round good for what she intends to do?
Steven

 

[SJB358]

Steve, that sounds like an awesome load. I think you will be more than happy with the performance of the BT at that speed. You should get excellent bullet performance have a very gentle shooting rifle.

Thanks for the info on the powder, glad it worked out for the best for you. Scotty

 

[Elkman]

At that range you should be fine especially since she is shooting so well. I would guess that you are coser t0 2500 or so with the shorter barrel. You loose about 40-50 fps per inch of barrel reduction. The 5 grain reduction in bullet weight will buy you a little but not much. Won't make any difference either way to a deer.
I am suprised about the powder I have used powder older than that and did not feel that I was loosing anything. :grin:

 

[DrMike]

I wouldn't attribute the differences to the age of the powder, but to lot-to-lot variation. If there were significant deterioration of the powder, you would see dust and pick up an acrid smell. I recently got a can of IMR 4064 from a fellow that insisted that I take it. I threw it out. It had likely been stored in a garage, and it was seriously and obviously degraded.

 

[1Shot]

I agree with the lot to lot change being the difference. Lot to lot bullets and primers and cases can change things a lot. Even the tempter can change group size.

 

[Guest]

I'm with the "lot-to-lot variation" crowd on the accuracy differences.

As far as velocity, I think you're being overly optimistic on that front. I'd suspect the 95gr bullet in front of that charge and in a 20" barrel is running along at something like 2500fps, if I had to guess. That's still likely plenty for anything out to 100-150yds, if the shot is placed well. If you want to see how fast it's really moving, maybe somebody on here is close to you, and has a chronograph. I'm in Huntsville, AL, so if that works for you, let me know. There are plenty of others on here that would do the same.

 

[roysclockgun]

The range officers at the county range where I shoot do not have fixed rules. Once I went there and set up a Chrony and no one said anything about using it. Next time another officer was on duty and said that I could not be in front of the bench setting up the Chrony, even when a number of people were down range checking targets.
I am sympathetic to the officers, because being a range officer at this county range is a very stressful job! I have seen shooters do incredibly stupid and many times dangerous things while handling firearms and shooting live fire.
No one likes to get yelled at, but who has time to be gentle and easy going, when someone is swinging a firearm and pointing it down the line of shooters?
There is a large shooting fan with baffles over and below what should be the line of fire, in front of all the benches. I suppose the baffles, made of wood, are to cut down on hearing loss. The baffles, both overhead and on the ground, are shot full of holes and must be resplaced, after their bearing walls begin to collapse. No one who can shoot should be hitting those baffles. Unbelievable, but true. All of us who have annual passes, worry about novices throwing rounds over the down range berm and into the forest beyond. That forest is state land and people are always going back in there. With people shooting who have no idea where they are throwing lead, we pray that a tragedy will not take place, as that would likely cause our range to be closed.
Anyway, thanks to all the respondants for letting me know that I am likely in the 2500 fps range on her MV. If I can get the Chrony set up before hunting season, I will check out MV and report.
About the difference in two lots of IMR4064 : The old lot shows no signs of degrading at all, so maybe, as you all have reported, it is just from shooting two different lots!
Steven

 

[Oldtrader3]

If the powder has a nitric acid, acrid, smell, that is more pronounced than a newer can of the same type powder, you may have a problem. The graphite retardent can break down and become more brittle if the powder was not stored properly for temperature control, at some time. I still use some powders that are 10+ years old for my reloading and they seem pretty consistant group wise and pressure wise. I store my powder in an extra closet in a box in the house so that the temperature is a pretty constant 70 degrees.

For any years the standard H4831 (there was no IMR 4831 available) from Hodgdon, was all at least WWII/Korean War production up until 1970 and it did not vary a great deal. We were all using 40-50 y.o. powder with no issues.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Many range officers that I have known are retired military guys, especially Marine Gunnies. They tend to act like Drill Instructors (DI's) toward anyone that they think they can intimidate. Just ignore them unless you are breaking the rules of safe gun handling. They will go away if they can not intimidate you or your wife. They especially like to scare women (no disrespect intended) who are more sensitive and are not familiar with their mental games.

 

[SJB358]

Many range officers that I have known are retired military guys, especially Marine Gunnies. They tend to act like Drill Instructors (DI's) toward anyone that they think they can intimidate. Just ignore them unless you are breaking the rules of safe gun handling. They will go away if they can not intimidate you or your wife. They especially like to scare women (no disrespect intended) who are more sensitive and are not familiar with their mental games.

Man, OT3, you can't lump all of us Marine Gunnery Sergeants into the same bucket!!! Scotty

 

[roysclockgun]

Not lumping, but as a matter of fact the only range officer with whom I have had a run-in does wear all sorts of Marine ID patches, pins, shirts and hats and has his truck emblazoned with Marine ID. I had a run-in with him because I am deaf and did not hear a cease-fire call. This was a long time in the past. The officer charged over to my bench and ordered me off the range. I went home and wrote to the county rec. office, for what I believed to be a reasonable request for some sort of special consideration for deaf shooters. The majority of the shooters during the week are older guys, like me, who wear hearing aids. I invoked the attention getting name of the "American Disabilities Act", which I knew would perk up ears at County. Otherwise, I did not name names or point fingers, but only asked for some consideration. I got a well written response, stating that the issue was being looked into. The next week the senior range officer called me over and showed me a boat horn. This had been purchased by the county and forever more, would be used, over the speakers, to announce cease-fire. I and everyone else can hear the horn and there has not been another incident of a firing after cease-fire is called. Soon after the Marine who is a range officer walked over to my bench and extended his hand. Neither of us spoke, but only shook hands.
Since that time, I have been befriended by the Marine and he even collects brass that I request.
Gunny R. Lee Emery, although an old Gunny, is a caricature.
Steven

 

[SJB358]

No worries buddy! I was just messing about it. It takes all kinds! Glad they were able to work it out for you all. I have even been harassed at the local ranges and I have shot probably tens of thousands more rounds in training and real world than alot of range officers. Range Officers do have a tough job, as there are some knuckleheads and everyone needs to be treated the same on the range! Scotty

 

[roysclockgun]

"Range Officers do have a tough job, as there are some knuckleheads.."

I agree with that. I do not think that I would be able to handle getting up five days a week, knowing that I had to be on the range with some of the people that I observe firing live fire! The wooden baffle walls down range, that are below and above the firing fan to the target are all shot up! The concrete walls, to either side of the 100 yard range are heavily scarred by hits! The range officers often have to yell down the line to tell a shooter not to point his firearm down the line of shooters! I would imagine that range officers suffer a high degree of stomach ulcers!
Steven

 

[Oldtrader3]

Believe me, I am not down on Marine Gunnies given their contribution during all of their service lives, to this country! Just those who forget that Civilians need a different approach. I am a 4th Infantry Division, Army Infantry Corpsman Veteran and actually was Training NCO for the Infantry Battalion that I was in and incidently a DI for ROTC Summer Camp Training. As such, I certainly support all of our veterans in their cilvilian transition.

Scotty knows this, he is just pulling my leg a little.

 

[SJB358]

Yeah, sorry, sometimes it is harder to express a funny comment in writing! It was all in fun! Scotty

 

[roysclockgun]

I took no offense at all. I am an old Army puke, red leg of the 2nd Armored Division who realizes why Marines are called Jar Heads! <8^))
One good thing that I can say about Marines with whom I served: They came to Ft. Hood to use our Arty. range and I spent days with some of them on forward OPs, calling in Arty. They always had old equipment, but they made it work and they never complained!
Steven, 78th Arty FA SP, '61 to '64