I just read the post on powder tricklers then, in the shower, thought to myself: I'm glad my balance doesn't measure powder to the 0.01 grain. Otherwise something inside me would make me stand there until I had it just right. If it measured to the 0.001, same thing. I think some of you can understand what I mean.
Precision
- Thread starter lever101
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DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,532
- 6,585
Good point. My Sartorius does measure to 0.01 grains. However, being somewhat of a perfectionist, I rejoice in the challenge. Truthfully, the difference in pressure (and consequently in velocity) generated by 0.1 grain for most powders is not terribly significant. Some of us are never happy until we are challenge by the impossible, however.
lever
I know exactly what you mean, however I have been able to ignore those types of details for many years now, however some can't. I quit weighing cases, bullets and buying match primers. I worry a lot less, and most of my rifles will shoot 1 inch or much less. Of course I load for hunting not match shooting and that also makes a difference. I use a spoon and a 505 for most of my reloading. Kind of slow but it gets the job done.
I know exactly what you mean, however I have been able to ignore those types of details for many years now, however some can't. I quit weighing cases, bullets and buying match primers. I worry a lot less, and most of my rifles will shoot 1 inch or much less. Of course I load for hunting not match shooting and that also makes a difference. I use a spoon and a 505 for most of my reloading. Kind of slow but it gets the job done.
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 17,858
- 6,414
In my experience, exact charge weight is one of the least important aspects of handloading for precision shooting.
For example, I simply throw charges of Varget from my RCBS powder measure, even for my 600 yard match ammo. With ammo loaded this way, I still shoot "high master" level scores. Now, I seldom win a match against the other doggone High Master shooters - like never - but it's good enough to land middle of the pack, or to shoot 2.5" - 3" groups at 600 yards from prone/bipod.
Bullet seating - that's the key in my opinion. Not exact charge weight. I think people get hung up on charge weights because it's one thing they can control, easily. Adjusting neck tension and making sure the bullet is seated straight in a straight case neck is more difficult.
Then of course, there's reading the wind... The real key to precision at longer ranges.
Anyone want to bet on that - explain how great groups and scores can be shot with factory loaded ammo, mass produced. It happens... Federal Gold Medal match .308 ammo. Works great. I'll bet the newer 6.5 Creedmoor ammo from Hornady also shoots match winning scores.
Guy
For example, I simply throw charges of Varget from my RCBS powder measure, even for my 600 yard match ammo. With ammo loaded this way, I still shoot "high master" level scores. Now, I seldom win a match against the other doggone High Master shooters - like never - but it's good enough to land middle of the pack, or to shoot 2.5" - 3" groups at 600 yards from prone/bipod.
Bullet seating - that's the key in my opinion. Not exact charge weight. I think people get hung up on charge weights because it's one thing they can control, easily. Adjusting neck tension and making sure the bullet is seated straight in a straight case neck is more difficult.
Then of course, there's reading the wind... The real key to precision at longer ranges.
Anyone want to bet on that - explain how great groups and scores can be shot with factory loaded ammo, mass produced. It happens... Federal Gold Medal match .308 ammo. Works great. I'll bet the newer 6.5 Creedmoor ammo from Hornady also shoots match winning scores.
Guy
I do have a laboratory grade scale that reads to .01gr, pain in the butt at first but I got used to it. Im about as fast with it now as beam scaleGuy Miner":2ouayv6e said:
My extreme spreads seem to be a little lower with it.
Guy
Funny you should bring up the 6.5 Creedmoor, I just had a rifle built on one and it's going out the second time in it's life for load testing.
First time was barrel break in, afterwards with mirage and windy conditions I still shot .5 moa out to 300 yards with factory 120gr A-Max.
I'll post results in the reloading section later on.
Randy
nvbroncrider
Handloader
- Aug 20, 2011
- 3,085
- 4
Isn't that why we handload? Make rounds for each of our rifles that bring the full potential out? That is why I do it and to save money!! I recently purchase an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 and talk about a nice toy to have in the room. Takes a lot of the time factor away and makes it a lot more enjoyable. Lost a piece to my 5-0-5 moving. Yes you can find some good cheap factory ammo out there but as someone who enjoys shooting and takes pride I like the challenge of making my own ammo. For instance PMC makes a great 55gr .223 round that I'm shooting under .5" groups out of a RRA AR-15 that was factory guarrenteed to shot 1 MOA @ 100 yd. In my case I think it is a welcomed challenge to get it to shoot under .25" groups.
I am with Guy on this one, many other things more important than charge consistency. I have an article where a gentleman spent consideral amout of time finding the perfiect load for a match 308 winchester. I will look it up and post the highlights but I believe the bullet and case brand were ultimately was the most important components. Of course all others played a role, some very minutely. I have it in the man cave and will dig it out today.
I agree with Guy, that reading the wind is the most difficult part in long range precission shooting.
Beyond that, for it depends on the round's particular need or use, for me. But for the most part, I weigh all my charges. Needed or not, I believe consistancy is the basis for accuracy. Yes trickling charges is a pita, but I have been doing that way so long, it's not a big deal. Only for my longest range target guns, do I weigh the bullets and brass as well. Not because I shoot matches, but I'm always competing against myself and striving for the best.
But I'll admit, with most hunting rounds, and using PBR sighting, along with not shooting much beyond PBR,,,,that a drop charge metering system that will throw +/- .1 gr. will like have little enough effect to be of consquence.
Beyond that, for it depends on the round's particular need or use, for me. But for the most part, I weigh all my charges. Needed or not, I believe consistancy is the basis for accuracy. Yes trickling charges is a pita, but I have been doing that way so long, it's not a big deal. Only for my longest range target guns, do I weigh the bullets and brass as well. Not because I shoot matches, but I'm always competing against myself and striving for the best.
But I'll admit, with most hunting rounds, and using PBR sighting, along with not shooting much beyond PBR,,,,that a drop charge metering system that will throw +/- .1 gr. will like have little enough effect to be of consquence.
The article that I was looking for was by Gary Sciuchetti and was published in the Handloader Magazine # 257. Gary's goal was to establish the most accurate load possible for a 308 winchester, and to find out how much each component affects accuracy and which brands may have the greatest accuracy potential. Each change in components was conducted with 4 five shot shot groups, 4 different rests were built all of which allowed the shooter to position the rifle and stand to one side while firing. Thousands of rounds were fired over a two year period. In the summary Gary listed several findings. One was that in his particular rifle, a Sako, that Federal GM Match ammunition was by far the most accurate. He also stated that changing the "quantity" of powder can alter group sizes up to .75 inch. Different primer brands altered group sizes by .313. Changing case brand altered group size by up to .25 inch. Changing brands and styles of bullets changed group sizes up to 2 inches. Seating depth is critical and a change can alter group size by 3 inches. His bullet data chart showed that , of all 165/168 bullets tested that the Match Bergers, and the VLD followed by the Matchking, Interbond A-Max, were the most accurate tested. In the middle of the group were the Partition, Grand Slam, Interlock SP, at the tail end were the J-36, Weldcore, Interlock BTSP, Barnes and Woodleigh.
I hope this is helpful to some it was and is to me.
I hope this is helpful to some it was and is to me.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,532
- 6,585
Noel,
I've come to love the Sartorius. It is as if I'm back in the biochemistry laboratory! :grin:
I've come to love the Sartorius. It is as if I'm back in the biochemistry laboratory! :grin:
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