RE-22 Temp Sensitive?
- Thread starter tecumseh
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DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
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It is not marketed as an extreme powder, so treat it as though it were temperature sensitive. I can say that I use a considerable amount of RL22 in temperatures ranging from -40 C to + 30 C, and I have never had a serious issue. In my experience, it is no more temperature sensitive than any other double base powder.
- Nov 4, 2004
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I agree with DrMike. I have used quite a bit of RL 22 and have never had any problems with it.
JD338
JD338
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 17,741
- 5,773
It can be a bit temp sensitive - so be careful about working up max level loads in cool weather, then assuming they're going to be safe in the heat of summer.
Also, I found some annoying point-of-impact shifts with Reloader 22 in different temperatures.
But I still like it! Typically very good velocity and very good accuracy, two things I appreciate.
Also, I found some annoying point-of-impact shifts with Reloader 22 in different temperatures.
But I still like it! Typically very good velocity and very good accuracy, two things I appreciate.
Ridge_Runner
Handloader
- Sep 29, 2006
- 1,377
- 700
temp sensativity is a given in double based powders, some are worse than others, but RE22 doesn't seem bad, however I've found that lot to lot variences are pretty serious.
I've dropped it from my reloading because of it.
Ive saw a 61 gr charge pushing a 140 gr bullet change velocity by 160 fps just by changing lots #'s.
RR
I've dropped it from my reloading because of it.
Ive saw a 61 gr charge pushing a 140 gr bullet change velocity by 160 fps just by changing lots #'s.
RR
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
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+1
For this reason, I work up whenever I change lots to verify load data.
Ridge_Runner
Handloader
- Sep 29, 2006
- 1,377
- 700
in the stuff I shoot if I did complete loadwork every lot change I'd be rebarreling twice a year, For most people it would just be a zero change, for me in this rifle it would require working up a new drop chart. so I switched to retumbo, not as fast but as consistant as sunrise.DrMike":2igusi3m said:
RR
RiverRider
Handloader
- Dec 9, 2008
- 1,436
- 71
I got great accuracy with Re22 in my .280, but I did not get a lot of velocity data because I was shooting at a public range in those days, and setting up a chronograph was just too much hassle. What I know about the temperature sensitivity of Re22 is what I've been told by other shooters whose experience and judgment I trust and it was on that basis I dropped Re22 from my reloading program.
It seems like so many reloaders who opt to continue using this powder defend it with phrases like "never had an issue with it" or "I never lost a deer because of it." I would like to know if they mean they chronographed it at temperature extremes and saw no significant velocity variations, or it's just "click-bang-the-deer's-DRT" (as so many hunters seem to regard such things) and that's good enough.
I believe that in very large cases the velocity variations would be augmented with Re22, and that possibly in smaller '06-based cartridges the variations may not be so pronounced. A friend who is very methodical and precise found variations of about 200 fps with a large-cased .300 Magnum using loads developed at about 85* F and shot at about 20* F. I guess if I really want to know how it behaves in an '06-based cartridge, I'll have to buy another pound of it and play with it to find out. The temperature range I have in mind is about 95* or 100* F down to about 0* F.
It seems like so many reloaders who opt to continue using this powder defend it with phrases like "never had an issue with it" or "I never lost a deer because of it." I would like to know if they mean they chronographed it at temperature extremes and saw no significant velocity variations, or it's just "click-bang-the-deer's-DRT" (as so many hunters seem to regard such things) and that's good enough.
I believe that in very large cases the velocity variations would be augmented with Re22, and that possibly in smaller '06-based cartridges the variations may not be so pronounced. A friend who is very methodical and precise found variations of about 200 fps with a large-cased .300 Magnum using loads developed at about 85* F and shot at about 20* F. I guess if I really want to know how it behaves in an '06-based cartridge, I'll have to buy another pound of it and play with it to find out. The temperature range I have in mind is about 95* or 100* F down to about 0* F.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
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I've chronographed loads in a variety of cartridges in temperatures from -20 C to +30 C and never had an issue with RL22. I don't know if that range will suffice or not. I have shot, but did not chronograph the load, in temperatures as low as -35 C. The loads still worked well at those temperatures. Because it is double base, there will be a measurable decrease in velocity as temperatures drop and measurable pressure rises as temperature increases. Since I seldom develop full max loads in my cartridges, this has not been a serious issue. Also, I am not shooting much over 400 yards as I'd rather get closer to game if possible. Also, I'm conscious that when a load is developed in winter to work it up for safety sake during warmer months.
RiverRider
Handloader
- Dec 9, 2008
- 1,436
- 71
Thanks for that response Dr.Mike, but here's what I specifically want to know: when a load using Re22 is developed in 80 degree F temps, and is then fired in 10 degree F weather, how much velocity is lost? Do you have data that answers this question?
- Nov 4, 2004
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R_R
Good question.
I have used RL 22 in the 338 RUM and 280 AI with exceptional accuracy. My experience with RL 22 temp sensativity has been no different than any other powder. I did get one lot that produced slightly lower velocities but not enough to worry about.
In preperation for an elk hunt, it shot on a cold morning to verify my 200 yd zero and had to come up 1 click. I shot my bull at 350 yds and hit the bull within a inch or so of where I was aiming.
I just really haven't had any real problems with RL 22.
JD338
Good question.
I have used RL 22 in the 338 RUM and 280 AI with exceptional accuracy. My experience with RL 22 temp sensativity has been no different than any other powder. I did get one lot that produced slightly lower velocities but not enough to worry about.
In preperation for an elk hunt, it shot on a cold morning to verify my 200 yd zero and had to come up 1 click. I shot my bull at 350 yds and hit the bull within a inch or so of where I was aiming.
I just really haven't had any real problems with RL 22.
JD338
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
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RiverRider,
Chronographing loads developed at or near 80 F (it doesn't get that warm up here) in 10 F weather, I would anticipate about a loss of between 70 to 120 fps in the 280 Rem. The mean is nearer the low end of this spread. In WSMs, the loss will be similar. I actually use a fair amount of RL22 in my 7mm RM, and in that cartridge the velocity loss is under 100 fps with 175 grain bullets when I checked my logs. I am careful to note the temperature when I develop a load as developing in winter and shooting in summer could potentially create a problem, though I have not personally encountered a significant problem in the field. I have not encountered a problem with any of my personal loads, but some individuals who have contracted with me for load development have ignored my warnings (printed in bold type), loading cartridges and shooting them in mid-summer despite the data being developed in mid-winter. Double base powders will exhibit elevated pressures when ambient temperatures rise. Not surprisingly, these individuals were startled when they encountered marked pressure increases. In short, there is a velocity loss under the conditions you suggest. I have not observed what I consider a significant decrease. The loss is between 3.0 and 3.5 % of maximum. I would imagine that could have a significant impact on long range shooting. However, under the conditions I hunt, it has not created a problem for me. I hope this helps clarify my earlier answer.
I will note that in seriously overbored cartridges, the use of any double base powder does degrade barrel life more rapidly. In Ridge_Runner's case, I can see how the cost of working up a load could render any data gathered as meaningless because of the wear on his barrel. Likewise, when shots over 450 yards are factored in, the need to create new drop charts make the case for working up a new load unappealing. Having said that, I will note again, that I find the loss in velocity in standard cases (in particular, the 280) and in short magnums (300 WSM in particular) and in older belted magnums (in particular, the 7mm RM), velocity loss with RL22 is not a serious problem for me under the conditions I have outlined.
I should make one other observation. Though I use a lot of RL22, I was somewhat surprised to discover upon reviewing my logs, that I have actually loaded a far greater number of hunting loads in these particular cases (and others that are of similar size) with RL19 than with RL22. I was actually astonished to realise that about four to one I was more likely to be carrying a cartridge built with RL19 than with RL22.
Chronographing loads developed at or near 80 F (it doesn't get that warm up here) in 10 F weather, I would anticipate about a loss of between 70 to 120 fps in the 280 Rem. The mean is nearer the low end of this spread. In WSMs, the loss will be similar. I actually use a fair amount of RL22 in my 7mm RM, and in that cartridge the velocity loss is under 100 fps with 175 grain bullets when I checked my logs. I am careful to note the temperature when I develop a load as developing in winter and shooting in summer could potentially create a problem, though I have not personally encountered a significant problem in the field. I have not encountered a problem with any of my personal loads, but some individuals who have contracted with me for load development have ignored my warnings (printed in bold type), loading cartridges and shooting them in mid-summer despite the data being developed in mid-winter. Double base powders will exhibit elevated pressures when ambient temperatures rise. Not surprisingly, these individuals were startled when they encountered marked pressure increases. In short, there is a velocity loss under the conditions you suggest. I have not observed what I consider a significant decrease. The loss is between 3.0 and 3.5 % of maximum. I would imagine that could have a significant impact on long range shooting. However, under the conditions I hunt, it has not created a problem for me. I hope this helps clarify my earlier answer.
I will note that in seriously overbored cartridges, the use of any double base powder does degrade barrel life more rapidly. In Ridge_Runner's case, I can see how the cost of working up a load could render any data gathered as meaningless because of the wear on his barrel. Likewise, when shots over 450 yards are factored in, the need to create new drop charts make the case for working up a new load unappealing. Having said that, I will note again, that I find the loss in velocity in standard cases (in particular, the 280) and in short magnums (300 WSM in particular) and in older belted magnums (in particular, the 7mm RM), velocity loss with RL22 is not a serious problem for me under the conditions I have outlined.
I should make one other observation. Though I use a lot of RL22, I was somewhat surprised to discover upon reviewing my logs, that I have actually loaded a far greater number of hunting loads in these particular cases (and others that are of similar size) with RL19 than with RL22. I was actually astonished to realise that about four to one I was more likely to be carrying a cartridge built with RL19 than with RL22.
RiverRider
Handloader
- Dec 9, 2008
- 1,436
- 71
Thanks again for the additional insight, fellas. This is one of the areas of handloading that has really piqued my interest over the years. I guess I'm like most folks who're too busy to find out first hand, but I would imagine that there are a zillion factors that might affect how the powder reacts to different temps. For instance, maybe it behaves more consistently with bullets of higher sectional densities...or maybe smaller cases as opposed to larger ones. I wish I could take the time and generate some data on my own.
As I said before, I ditched Re22 over its sensitivity to temperature extremes. I suppose there are as many different opinions as there are handloaders as to whether the resultant variation is of any consequence. For me, it matters enough. I remember when one of the newer powders came out---either 8208XBR or Re17, I don't recall which---it was said that in testing, it actually gained a few feet per second (on the order of 11 or 12 fps or some such insignificant quantity) when tested at the low temperature extreme. If the powder's worth a hoot for the application, then this seems to me to be a real plus...and I WANT THAT! Why would I use something that's going to perform differently at temperature extremes when I don't have to put up with it?
I guess we all have our own favorite little nits to pick. I certainly have mine!
As I said before, I ditched Re22 over its sensitivity to temperature extremes. I suppose there are as many different opinions as there are handloaders as to whether the resultant variation is of any consequence. For me, it matters enough. I remember when one of the newer powders came out---either 8208XBR or Re17, I don't recall which---it was said that in testing, it actually gained a few feet per second (on the order of 11 or 12 fps or some such insignificant quantity) when tested at the low temperature extreme. If the powder's worth a hoot for the application, then this seems to me to be a real plus...and I WANT THAT! Why would I use something that's going to perform differently at temperature extremes when I don't have to put up with it?
I guess we all have our own favorite little nits to pick. I certainly have mine!
- Nov 4, 2004
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R_R
The point to keep in mind is that all powders are temp sensative, some more so than others.
JD338
The point to keep in mind is that all powders are temp sensative, some more so than others.
JD338
cjohnson3006
Beginner
- Nov 23, 2008
- 16
- 0
I had a noticed velocity change of almost 80 fps last year when the temps dropped into the 20's versus the 70's when my loads were developed in my 300 winny using 76gr of RL22 and 180gr Accubonds. I emailed Alliant when I saw their new Power Pro powders to see if they were less sensitive. The man on the other end told me to try an additional 1/2 grain. I decided to load a few at 76.5 and 77gr. The downside is I havent shot these yet to find out if it makes a difference between now and warmer weather. CJ
I've shot a ton of RE22 in a bunch of cartridges over the years... in fact, if it's an "overbore" round... RE22 is the place I look first to establish a benchmark for accuracy. It always produces excellent velocities... and seems to shoot 'pretty well' in a lot of applications.
I've always run mag primers with RE22, even in the 6mm Rem.... maybe that's why I haven't noticed the velocity swings that others have noted. I'll sacrifice a bit of accuracy for the reliability and consistency of mag primers in a pure big-game hunting load... and I plan accordingly during load development of course...
I've always run mag primers with RE22, even in the 6mm Rem.... maybe that's why I haven't noticed the velocity swings that others have noted. I'll sacrifice a bit of accuracy for the reliability and consistency of mag primers in a pure big-game hunting load... and I plan accordingly during load development of course...
