Two touching, one an inch away

[EastTNHunter]

Alright, I’ve been reloading for years, and have had this phenomenon occur before, with other rifles and loads, but I’ve always been able to “tune it out” by tinkering. I can’t really point to any one thing that I’ve done in the past to fix it, but these 168 TTSXs in my new Tikka T3 30-06 are kinda getting on my nerves with this occurring with pretty common regularity. I’ll get one of the below OALs to group at around.6”, then I’ll try to repeat it and get the “2 touching, 1 an inch away” phenomenon the next time. What am I doing wrong? I’m just trying to get consistent, repeatable sub-moa groups.


My load is:
57gr I4350, RP brass, CCI 200 primers, 168TTSX, and the following lengths - 3.365 (.050 off the lands, max mag length), 3.355, 3.345; I’ve also jumped down to 3.295 and adjusted around there.

I’ve used a 57.5gr load with 165 NABs, 57gr with 165TTSXs (settled at .120 off of the lands), and 180 NABs over 56.5gr (all I4350) with consistent sub-moa results, so I know that the rifle will shoot. I’m just too stubborn to give up on this bullet, as Barnes states that it will open more consistently at lower velocities than the 165...

 

[truck driver]

Loose action screws from session to shooting session, loose scope screws,
bad scope?
I had a problem with a rifle that would loosen the action screws and change the POI from session to session at the range. Action in a plastic factory stock changed stocks and cured the problem.

 

[EastTNHunter]

Not the gun, scope, or mounts. I shot other loads in the same session(s) that were consistent

 

[truck driver]

Try a different powder until you find one the bullet likes if your dead set on using this bullet.

 

[Dwh7271]

They like jump.
Shorten them up a hair.

 

[truck driver]

They like jump.
Shorten them up a hair.

I went back and reread the post and saw where he was seating the 168s at .050" and the 165s at .120" so that would explain his problem.

 

[EastTNHunter]

I tried them at .120 jump as well, but had some issues that I can’t remember at this point. I made a note already to try it again, and likely will now based on your recommendations

 

[EastTNHunter]

I just loaded up a few more at .110, .120, and .130” off of the lands. We’ll see when I get a chance to go shooting again

 

[Elkman]

My advice would be to use the rest of the 168's for off hand practice, and hunt with the 165's and AB's. You have a great load and a great bullet, that will do what ever you want, be thankful.

 

[Gunner46]

I went nuts with a finicky 308 some year ago. Just 'had' to get a 165 to work. I needed it to work for my personal value as a self proclaimed guru of shooting & hunting ! A lot of powder & bullets were simply wasted in futility.

I already had a 180BT that gave acceptable velocity and printed 3/4-7/8 groups all day long, everyday.

Finally just gave up on the 165 quest and went with what was working. Can't say that anything that I squeezed the trigger on ever denied to die any faster because I wasn't using the 165's!

 

[bobnob]

Two touching - with the third an inch away, is still a great hunting load East!

I’d be inclined to call it good and hunt with it...

 

[EastTNHunter]

I’m sure that it is, but I’m just too stubborn. All of my rifles and hunting loads will shoot WAY better than I can in the field. I’m sure that 1.5-2” groups would be more than accurate for hunting

 

[EastTNHunter]

Here are a few pictures for reference:

 

[ShadeTree]

The strange one about that is not that the gun does it, but that it doesn't do it with other bullets.

It's the bullet, but why. You said Barnes stated this 168 TTSX will open up at lower velocities than the 165 TTSX, so the hardness is obviously some different.

Taking that into consideration it would generate different pressures and have different friction in the bore compared to a harder all copper bullet of a very similar weight.

If you got room to go up, try increasing powder, or a different powder. Just thinking out loud here.

Does it ever shoot a tight group with this bullet or always a flier?

 

[ShadeTree]

EastTNHunter, after I got off the computer last evening the thought crossed my mind that I shouldn't of said obviously the bullet is a different hardness, like it was a statement of fact. I don't know that, was just typing out my thoughts. It could be a larger hollow point in behind that plastic tip that causes it to open quicker, I don't know. Perhaps you could find out from Barnes.

The other thing to check is I got boxes of bullets already that had the ogive at a significant different location than the same bullets from a different lot. After calling in about it, this particular manufacturer told me they allow for a .010 variance.

You could check the measurements from that box and see if you can find any oddballs in the mix. A longer bearing surface on some, with an all copper bullet would make a noticeable difference.

Point is there is always a reason for things like this, you just have to find it if you so choose. My suggestions might not have a thing to do with the actual reason, but it's things you could check and eliminate from the list.

 

[SJB358]

I'd shoot 3 consecutive groups of 3 rounds a piece. Overlay them and see if it is the same one or it is something else. I have found shooting three rounds isn't a bad way to go, but with a load I plan on using for real I wanna see what it does over a larger string of fire. Not saying to shoot 3 groups right after one another, but let it cool down and shoot the next three and so on. Might give a truer picture of overall capability.

 

[Nimrod84]

EastTNHunter,

Have you tried seating the bullets 0.005-0.010 deeper into the case? This would be at 0.055-0.06 off the lands. I think from what is in the original post you did try 0.06 off the lands, but not 0.055 off. I'm asking, as I've had a very high success rate of tightening up that pesky flyer when I follow Rodell's advice at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28943; and sometimes a 0.005" adjustment can make a huge difference.

Also, have you checked for bullet concentricty in the case? Different nose profile could be hitting the top of the seater stem and causing some skewing... I think Fotis, awhile ago, ran into this issue with his 257 Bee. I believe he tracked the flyer to an occasional bullet being slightly askew in the case. Link for that adventure is at: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthrea ... -2-and-one

 

[EastTNHunter]

I’ve been adjusting at .010 increments, although there have been some gaps, but I haven’t checked concentricity as I don’t have a runout gage

 

[Nimrod84]

EastTNHunter,

I don't have a run-out tool either. When I run into a weird grouping issue that I can't resolve, I visually inspect loaded rounds next to each other to see if any bullets look like they are are off axis. I'll then roll them over a cutting board or piece of glass to see if the bullet tip "wobbles". Putting two rounds tip to tip will also show run-out if the tips don't touch - page 2 and about halfway down the page shows this - https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthrea ... 12764892/2.

I'm generally not concerned with run-out; and when I am concerned I am looking for gross issues from the bullet tips hitting the seating stem or debris in the die. The one time I've cared about run-out was when I was having issues with blem 168 grain CC in 30-06. bullet lengths were all over the place and the longer ones were hitting the seating stem. They were obviously cockeyed when the cartridges were rolled or placed tip to tip.

I had a seating die that had a build-up of something (lube, copper, graphite - I'm not sure) that resulted in some flyers. A quick cleaning took care of the issue, I usually run a patch and nylon brush through my dies once a year at a minimum...

Thank you for the response.

 

[EastTNHunter]

I received this reply from Barnes today. Their customer service is top notch:

“For distances out to 400 yards the 165 gr. will work great out of a 30-06 I would not worry about the 168 unless you plan on shooting well beyond 400 yards.“

I’m going to stick with the 165s for now and try the 168s again later. I really appreciate everyone’s responses.