Vietnam era Rem. M700 Sniper Rifle effective range?

R

roysclockgun

Handloader
Dec 17, 2005
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In Joseph T. Ward's great read, "Dear Mom: A Sniper's Vietnam", the author claims to have been trained to make shots on individual enemy soldiers out to 2000 yards. He further cliams to have successfully made that shot during his tour in Vietnam. Are their any confirmed kills at that range, using 7.62x51mm match ammo or any other 7.62 cartridges?
I realize that Sgt. Carlos Hathcock made some long shots using a scope mounted 50cal. MG., but had never before heard of 2000 yard shots being confirmed on individuals, using the bolt action sniper rifles.
 
Been a while since I've read that book. Sure he was crediting a .308 bolt rifle with 2000 yard kills? I know they also used .50 BMG's, the old M2 set up with a scope.

I compete with a .308 out to 1000 yards. Believe me, it's running out of steam at that range. Many loads are going transsonic at around 900 - 1000 yards and start flying sidways and tumbling. Not good. It takes good ammo, either 175's or 155's to do 1000 yards well with a .308 Win. Going to 2000 yards accurately doesn't seem possible.

BTW - I had a USMC sniper platoon for two years in the 1980's. It was called "STA" then for Surveillance & Target Acquisition. I was not a sniper, but sure spent a lot of time in the field and on the range with them. 1000 yards was a real, real long shot with the 7.62 USMC M40A1 bolt gun. The guys were a lot more comfortable with something in the 700 yard range.

Semper Fi, Guy
 
Carlos Hathcock whacked a vc at over 2000 yards with a .50 on the ho chi minh trail. It was in the book ''93 confirmed kills''.
 
Guy Miner wrote: "....Sure he was crediting a .308 bolt rifle with 2000 yard kills?...."

Yes, I am certain. I did not take time to look up all the places where Ward speaks of making 2000 yd. shots with the Rem. M700, but on page 150 he writes concerning attempting to take out an enemy sniper: "With the best Russian sniper rifle,I estimated he had a maximum range of 1,200 to 1,500 yards. With the bolt rifle, under the same conditions, my maximum range was a full-torso hit at two thousand yards." end quote. Huh? If he's talking the Russian scope mounted Model 91/30, it would take world class tuning of the rifle and ammo to get those things to be dependable on a man sized targe at half of his 1,500 yard estimate. And then, he's claiming "full torso hit at two thousand yards." ??
 
Well roysclockgun - I'm with you - a doubting Thomas if you will - don't know how a fellow could make a kill with a .308 at 2000 yards...

Palma shooters are pushing the .308 about as hard as it can be pushed, with little 155 grainers at nearly 3000 fps for accuracy at 1000 yards. The Brits have found it can work at 1200 yards, but they're using 32 and 34 inch barrels to do it...

My 30" barrel Palma rifle shoves a 155 Nosler at 2980 fps with my favorite load. It's okay at 1000, but doubling that distance? No way.

I'd say somebody got their yardage figures mixed up. Not going to get 2000 out of a .308 or 7.62 NATO.
 
I hope no one took my question the wrong way. I respect all our combat veterans and continue to read of wars, especially personal accounts. Mr. Ward's Vietnam tour as a Marine Sniper was in 1969. He did not publish his story until 1991. Twenty two years can do a lot to anyone's ability to recall details, especially if he did not continue to shoot long range and keep up with the reality of long yardage.
Those who've studied older wars may know of the effects of "massed Infantry" firing rifled muskets, even before the American War Between the States. The US Springfield Model 1855 rifle could be used to bring enemy targets under fire at 600 yards with a .58 cal. Minie Ball. This use of Infantry, however, was not and individual rifleman taking aim at an individual enemy troop. Perhaps a regiment of Infantry would be ordered to hold high and aim in the general direction of clump of trees and in so doing, would create a "beaten ground" in the area where most of their rifle balls impacted. Therefore, I do not doubt that some Vietnam era snipers could perfect laying .30 cal rounds into an area known to contain enemy troops at a range of 2000 yds., but that is a far cry from claiming to be able to consistently hit a full sized human target at that range.
 
The only sniper round that is capable of consistantly making a shot like that is the 338 x 50 Talbot.
 
Hi Roy, As I mentioned in one of my previous posts I have a friend with a Marine Corp sniper son in Baghdad. His comment was "You are really stretching the .308 at 1000yards." The Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifle sees quite a bit of use and has documented kills at 1500yards. He also mentioned that 2000 yards is not out of the realm for the .50 caliber although it is not encouraged. Hathcock pulled his long shot on a gook riding a bicycle loaded with AK's. The first shot knocked the bicycle out from underneath the rider and the second shot took the rider out. Hathcock had a natural ability that was almost uncanny.
 
Yeah, Sgt. Carlos Hathcock was among a group of really great snipers that were able to operate during the Vietnam War in a way that we shall probably not see again. I was privileged to hear Maj. Land speak of those days in Vietnam, when he was heading up the Marine snipers. He said that it would be nearly impossible to ID many of the rifles that they used, as so many battalion level armorers did custom work on the sniper rifles in very unique ways, as requested by each sniper. Therefore, most anyone could take and era Rem. M700 or Win. M70 and dress it out in period goodies and claim it to be a Vietnam War original sniper rilfe. No?
 
Yeah, Sgt. Carlos Hathcock was among a group of really great snipers that were able to operate during the Vietnam War in a way that we shall probably not see again. I was privileged to hear Maj. Land speak of those days in Vietnam, when he was heading up the Marine snipers. He said that it would be nearly impossible to ID many of the rifles that they used, as so many battalion level armorers did custom work on the sniper rifles in very unique ways, as requested by each sniper. Therefore, most anyone could take and era Rem. M700 or Win. M70 and dress it out in period goodies and claim it to be a Vietnam War original sniper rilfe. No?
 
LUCKY SHOT!

J/K

smiling_frog.gif
 
I am much respectful of anyone who's tasted combat. Heck, my son-in-law has been shot at three times. Once in the first Gulf War, second time in Mog in the Blackhawk Down debacle and finally in a road building operation is drug lord territory in Central America. That said, I believe that the mission of the sniper has been overhyped by Hollywood. Certainly the sniper can be a vital tactical tool and on occasion, can influence strategic operations, in terms of high level assassination, but mystique and bad films have clouded the real role of snipers.
 
As far as I know, Carlos Hathcocks farthest shot with the 30-06 Model 70 sniper rifle he had was a little over 800 yards on a VC General. He had a 8x Unertl mounted on top shooting 175 or 180 grain loads. It goes into detail in the 93 Confirmed kills book. He did win Wimbleton one year and that is 1000 yards but he used a 300 Winchester Magnum for that. Being as Carlos Hathcock is one of the most famous, if not THE MOST famous, sniper to come out of that era, it seems hard for me to believe that anyone else could make 2000 yard shots with a .308 and then just disappear into anonymity. He would be a famous man and ran sniper schools for the years to come as Sgt. Hathcock did.
 
Taking nothing away from SSgt. Hathcock, we will likely never know who the greatest sniper of the Vietnam War is/was, simply because of the system of listing official kills, coupled with the fact that a lot of great snipers went home from the war and blended back into society. Few of the greats got any sort of "press".
 
Taking nothing away from SSgt. Hathcock, we will likely never know who the greatest sniper of the Vietnam War is/was, simply because of the system of listing official kills, coupled with the fact that a lot of great snipers went home from the war and blended back into society. Few of the greats got any sort of "press".
 
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