What school?

[Jager1]

Who's teachings do you tend to agree with the most on O'Conner or Keith?

For me it would be Mr. O'Connor

 

[Oldtrader3]

Wow, the two extremes! I think that I am more like Warren Page.

 

[Elkman]

Keith

I have spent a lot of time in his country and near his home. Time stands still, in the Frank.

 

[FOTIS]

Keith all the way

 

[Anonymous]

I have to report that after reading both....I agree with both!

 

[Guy Miner]

Cooper.

Oh yeah. He wasn't one of the options. :grin: Still, I do admire the good Colonel's thoughts and writings.

Keith or O'Conner? Likely more in tune with O'Conner.

Despite my appreciation for the bigger bores, I don't seem to have any trouble killing game with smaller bore rifles, from .30 on down. Keith didn't seem to have much use for them, yet I consider them some of the best.

Also, from what I can figure, I don't think Keith ever really appreciated what a "premium" such as the Nosler Partition, did for rifles... His approach was simple; if a .30 cal bullet didn't do well, step up to a .33, .35 or .375 bullet, or bigger! Not a bad thought, but with the Partition - bigger isn't always necessary.

BTW - I suspect there are quite a few of today's shooters who have actually done MORE shooting and MORE hunting than either of those gentlemen. Food for thought.

Regards, Guy

 

[gerry]

Kind of in the middle for me I tend to like heavier bullets but know that well built projectiles from smaller guns can do very well. What I didn't like about Keith is what was reported by John Barsness at 24hourcampfire that he was so stuck in his ways he wouldn't change even with better bullets, such as using heavy but thin jacketed cup and core bullets that failed miserably when a well built lighter slug from a round like a 270 Win would have been much superior. After using the 200 gr AccuBond in 35 Whelen on yesterday's bear I guess it is combining both schools of thought, most others like the heavier slugs which I do too but that bullet performed very well too..... I would whack a moose with them.

 

[SJB358]

Keith

I have spent a lot of time in his country and near his home. Time stands still, in the Frank.

I tend to like EK more myself. I like heavy, tough bullets. While I do use the heavy stuff, Keith was also a huge fan of the 280 Dubiel which was basically a 7mm Rem Mag 25 years before it debuted. After reading Keith's books, it makes more sense. Granted, smaller calibers can and do kill very well, but bigger bullets of the same make up, size and toughness make more blood and larger impact on game.

Plus, I think Elmer was a fan of WT&C 275 grain bullets in the Whelen and took the once #2 Grizzly with that combo and loved the 400 Whelen. HE was also a one load per gun guy and learned the trajectory, so it wasn't a deterrent and knew energy on target wasn't be all end of of killing when using big bullets.

Gerry hits alot of great points though with the 200 and 35 Whelen.

 

[Woodycreek]

Don't know where I fall into on this one? I like fast, heavy for caliber, premium bullets. Guess that's more O'Conner than Keith? I do like the 45-70 throwing big slugs for up close hunting. I would pick Col. Craig Boddington since he likes the the big, fast boomers.

Cooper.

Oh yeah. He wasn't one of the options. :grin: Still, I do admire the good Colonel's thoughts and writings.

Col. Cooper is the man when its comes to carrying a pistol for self defense! His books are full a great info on pistol craft and living a good life as a stand up American. He had some good ideas for an all around rifle also.

 

[PJGunner]

Mostly during my hunting career it's been O'Connor but back in the mid 70's I got a copy of Keith, An Autobiograhy and much later Hell. I Was There. Keith's escapades with big bears and the .35 Whelen kind of provoked an interest in the cartridge but it was still a wildcat. When Remington legitimized the round I found a Ruger M77 chambered to the Whelen, bought it and started playing with the cartridge. One day at a gun show, I found a Remington M700 and that too came home with my. I'm liking the cartridge but the two rifles for some reason wasn't floating my boat. Then, one day while cruising a gun show there was this nice display of custom rifles and one was a Whelen on an Oberndorf Mauser. I picked it up and after shouldering it a few times asked the price. $900 firm said the seller. Normally I'd have said thhanks and put it down but something in my head said, "This is the one." So without even trying to dicker I just laid my money down. I mounted a 3x9 Leupold on it and hit the range the next day. factory ammo, 200 and 250 gr. Remington's hovered around the one inch range so I knew the gun would shoot.
Thing got wierd after that. Normally I work a load up but I saw so many posts using Re15 and 225 gr, bullets that I went with that. So many posts using 60.0 gr. with a 225 gr. Barnes TSX that I just went with that. (Yeah, I know better OK?) That Mauser took to that load like a duck to water. First group was .50" :shock: That's a 5 shot group BTW. I shot three more 5 shot groups that afternoon and the largest was .80 inch, probably that big because it was the last group I shot and I was getting a bit tired. So far, I've taker two cow elk with that load and it is a winner. I've done a bit of testing with the 225 gr. Accubonds and Partitions. Preliminary tests show 1.10" with the Partitions but the Accubonds have only done 1.25" so far. Charge for both bullets as 59.0 gr. Re15, the max in the latest Nosler manual. I've got Keith's Rifles For Large Game and his Big Game Rifles. I'll have to read them again. The more I play with the .35 Whelen, the more neglected my other guns feel. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Paul B.

 

[Anonymous]

Cooper.

Oh yeah. He wasn't one of the options. :grin: Still, I do admire the good Colonel's thoughts and writings.

Yeah- I really like Cooper. His Scout Rifle concept is the best "all around" rifle I've ever messed with. I love mine. Receiver sighted big bore for big nasties.

The Scout and Baby. Pretty hard to argue with.

 

[Idahotrophyhunter]

Keith

I have spent a lot of time in his country and near his home. Time stands still, in the Frank.

I too spend a lot of time in the frank church and selway bitterroot (salmon, north fork, shoup area) That is some of the nastiest country N. America has to offer - you don't want to be chasing wounded elk around.

For that reason alone I have moved up and chase elk with the .375.

 

[Guy Miner]

See, this sort of post keeps me from thinking I've gone totally nuts when I hunt with a .375 - or at least if I've gone nuts, I've got company! :grin:

Thanks!

 

[Oldtrader3]

Maybe all of we shooters that have bigger bore rifles are nuts but I just like shooting them occasionally just for kicks, even if I will never go the Africa.

 

[pre6422hornet]

I am on a 75/25 curve right now.

From 1998-2012 I have either used a 12 gauge, 50cal, .270 or .348 to take big game with ( not too mention a lot with archery equipment. ). The 12 gauge and 50 cal killed game with boring regularity, but they never seemed to drop it in its tracks. The blood trails were magnificent although. With all ranges have been from 20 feet to 150 yards.

The .270 has dropped elk, mulie's, and whitetails in its tracks.... Literally. Quartering away, broadside, or frontal shots all ended with a bang flop. The longest shot was 150 yards and the closes about 30 feet.

While I like and/or am mesmerized by the .270's ability to drop game in it's tracks, I really do appreciate the big bore's massive wound channel and blood trail. There is something to be said for both. In the thick Missouri woods I hunt currently, the 348 shines. I can duck under cover with the short 20 inch barrel, slip quietly through the trees and make a 100 yard shot with relative ease even with the peep sight.

Out west I don't think the .348 would be in my hands UNLESS I knew a big bad bull or buck was lurking in the dark timber where a scope is more of a hindrance than an asset.

So I guess I like them both. Instead of having a Jack O'Connor shrine.... maybe it should be a Jack O'Kieth shrine

 

[JD338]

I am a big fan of Elmer Keith.

JD338

 

[Oldtrader3]

Pat, a lot of hunters here in Washington carry .348's for coastal Roosevelt elk hunting in the rain forest. Shots are sometimes in feet, not yards, in the jungle like terrain in the Olympic Range. The fern bracken and devil's club are thick and about 10 feet high. That is why it is relatively easy to find a Winchester Model 71 here than in many other parts of the country.

 

[longrangehunter]

Wow, the two extremes! I think that I am more like Warren Page.

I second that one about Warren, with Elmer and Jack a close tie but I like Keith's heavy for caliber mentality in everything that goes Bang!

 

[Hegland]

I find myself moreso in line with JOC, for two reasons. One, as others have noted, I don't think Elmer gave enough credit to premium bullets. And two, while I can certainly support the logic behind his bigger-is-better thought process, he carried it further than I would. I distinctly remember reading an article he wrote on long-range coyote rifles, saying that "not less than" a .30 caliber magnum would be ideal. He may have been after bigger coyotes than I am...

Having read both I'll also say this: Mr. Keith, even after polishing by editors, could not hold a literary candle to the old English professor. Jack's observations of human nature and his insistence on turning exactly the right phrase makes for wonderful reading, and no doubt increased his influence on the world of gun magazine subscribers.

Another thing noted previously in the thread, Colonel Cooper was a great American. Love this forum!

 

[filmjunkie4ever]

These men were both right for the types of game they most frequented and the styles of hunting they preferred. I tend to lean more towards Keith than O'Connor personally yet it seems even O'Connor liked the 30-06 as a better overall choice than the 270. Keith hated the 30-06 and this is where he, Keith, and I part company of opinions. Had Elmer the choice of fine projectiles offered to us readily avail able to him, his opinion of the 30-06 would not have been so bias. They both were fine men who knew how to shoot and much can be learned from their experiences where hunting or shooting is concerned.