Notice: This site is not mobile friendly, we recommend you download tapatalk for a mobile friendly experience of our forum.

It is currently Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:01 pm

Shop Nosler

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:45 pm
Posts: 22541
Location: Cheyenne, WY
A very old man once told me no matter how much you spent on your rifle it is is worth nothing with out great optics.

He was right

high-speed video of scope and barrel flexing on a 50BMG


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5pVya7eask


I am making this one a sticky!

_________________


Weatherby...There is no replacement for displacement!


My blog. Please Comment and Follow
https://thehandloadinglog.wordpress.com


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:18 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:49 pm
Posts: 33032
Location: Northern British Columbia
That is a pretty informative video, Fotis. The mounting system and the quality of the scope are vital whatever firing system is in question.

_________________
Fortiorum fortia facta


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:30 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:20 pm
Posts: 30095
Location: Northern Virginia
WOW! Incredible!

_________________
SEMPER FIDELIS

Actually, there are only two classes of people posting here: Model 70 owners and those who wish they had one. PATENT PENDING


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:26 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:45 pm
Posts: 22541
Location: Cheyenne, WY
True Doc.

Granted this is a 50 cal but think of a much lighter scope on a Lapua or something.

Never go cheap on scopes!

_________________


Weatherby...There is no replacement for displacement!


My blog. Please Comment and Follow
https://thehandloadinglog.wordpress.com


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:03 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:03 pm
Posts: 1965
Location: Inland Empire, CA/Henderson, Nevada
You also need a robust mounting system when shooting big boomer. I found out just last night while removing the MK4 from my 338 Lapua so that I can mount the Nightforce. As I'm unscrewing the screws from a Seekins ring, It felt like a few were really loose. I thought that the screw were just came undone due to recoil but it turns out that the screws are breaking apart. The screws are probably sub quality and can't handle the violent recoil of my 338. This rifle is really hard on optics. It reaped apart two IOR's when I first got it. Only the MK4 can withstand it's recoil. I hope the Nightforce will do as well.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

_________________
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth"

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:08 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:20 pm
Posts: 30095
Location: Northern Virginia
That is some serious recoil!

_________________
SEMPER FIDELIS

Actually, there are only two classes of people posting here: Model 70 owners and those who wish they had one. PATENT PENDING


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:20 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:49 pm
Posts: 33032
Location: Northern British Columbia
Rommel,

All I need to say is, "Wow!" That is serious recoil.

_________________
Fortiorum fortia facta


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:48 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:03 pm
Posts: 1965
Location: Inland Empire, CA/Henderson, Nevada
This screws are 8-32 and larger than your typical ring screws.

The weird thing is the screws that broke were on the same position on the forward and on the rear ring. That must be the area where the higher concentration of force is exerted. I have to find a better quality screws. Just like everything else, most of this screw came from either Taiwan or China.

_________________
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth"

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:55 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:45 pm
Posts: 22541
Location: Cheyenne, WY
Wow

_________________


Weatherby...There is no replacement for displacement!


My blog. Please Comment and Follow
https://thehandloadinglog.wordpress.com


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:19 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:56 pm
Posts: 2418
Location: Idaho
If you look really close it looks like the mount is doing most if not all of the flexing. That rail system isn't nearly strong enough for that recoil. It wiggles like a wet noodle under recoil and that is why the scope looks like it's doing the same.


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:13 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:08 pm
Posts: 20364
Location: Cedar Springs, MI
Wow, pretty intersting video.
Its no wonder why lesser scopes fail.

JD338

_________________
Speed sells but Accuracy kills.

Noslers Rock


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:51 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:48 pm
Posts: 1444
Location: Hawaii
Yikes Rommel.
Russ


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:33 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:05 pm
Posts: 8406
Location: I-5 Lala Land North, Washington State
With that kind of a vibration node through that mount, rings and scope, the screws probably sheared because of relative motion shear forces between scope tube and mount. May be more likely in this case than a tensile failure, especially with 32 TPI threading. Screw looks more like a shear failure to me at least. Certainly impressive vibrations!

_________________
CDR3
Veteran, NRA Member


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:17 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:42 am
Posts: 15314
Location: Washington State
Safari Magazine, from Safari Club International, did quite a torture test of scopes and mounts a few years ago - testing a variety of scopes on a .460 Weatherby Mk V. The scopes held up well, but the Picatinny rail mount eventually failed under that severe recoil.

Several years ago I had the privilege of doing a six-month test of a U.S. Optics scope - input from a rural area SWAT sniper was desired. That was one heck of a scope, but my department couldn't afford it, neither could I, so it went back after the test. Sadly.

The scope was quite large and heavy compared to the hunting scopes I typically prefer, but had crystal clear optics and was very strong. It was mounted to my rifle on a steel Badger rail base with steel Badger rings. Tough stuff.

On the way out from an operation up in the Cascades, a rock turned underfoot and I took a hard fall. The rifle went flying from my hands and crashed onto the rocks after about a 6' fall. No apparent damage externally.

The next morning I headed to the range bright and early - and was impressed to find that the zero had not shifted at all.

I've seen a 6.5-20x Leupold lose it's zero (badly) by having the rifle simply kicked over while sitting on the firing line on a short bipod. This big U.S. Optics scope never even budged. Very impressive. Yet another reason to go with a robust scope & mounting system.

I believe the heavier scopes put more of a strain on their mounts during recoil than do the lighter scopes.

Also, fixed power scopes simply have fewer internal parts, less to go wrong.

Things worth considering when scope & mount shopping.

Regards, Guy


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:24 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:27 am
Posts: 784
Location: Northern CO
Guy Miner wrote:
I believe the heavier scopes put more of a strain on their mounts during recoil than do the lighter scopes.

Also, fixed power scopes simply have fewer internal parts, less to go wrong.

Things worth considering when scope & mount shopping.

Regards, Guy


Excellent point Guy.

I too believe that heavy scopes place large strain on mounting equipment. I remember a SS 10x42 mounted on a .300 RUM (with brake) that sheared off several screws in both Leupold PRW 30mm rings.... and the rear 2-Piece Leupold base. It was also very difficult to keep that rifle zeroed, not due to the scope (because it perforemed perfectly before and after riding this rifle).... but due to the strain on the mounts/hardware.

Once I went to a VariX-3 Tac. 4.5-14x40 in Talley's..... it never moved (and the rifle lost over a pound).

Another thing to consider on a hard recoiling rifle with big Tacticool glass..... is the fact that you're often shooting large Obj. lenses too (50mm+). This calls for high rings, which creates added leverage (longer lever) against the mounts for the heavy scope to beat on them with. If you do go big glass (which is sometimes necessary) don't skimp on the mounts and don't trust the factory hardware.

_________________
"Whatever you do.... DO NOT eat the free Pistachio Ice Cream........ It has turned!" ~Mater


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:08 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:21 am
Posts: 540
Folks tend to think it's all about the glass, but over time, I've come to realize that what you pay for in the premier scopes is mechanical quality. Nightforce, US Optics, etc get their premium because they are so damned tough, repeatable and robust.


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:27 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:05 pm
Posts: 8406
Location: I-5 Lala Land North, Washington State
The glass quality and polishing for basics, plus the science of coatings and the optical phase matching of the refractory indices of the lenses is important for sure to give you the basic optical performance that you are paying for.

AzDak42, you are abslolutely right on mechanics. Getting the internals designed and built tough is very important as well as assuring with double springs or whatever that the eyebox maintains zero, despite shocks, knocks, dings and temperature changes. That scope has to survive horseback and whatever comes its way and still deliver optical performance.

_________________
CDR3
Veteran, NRA Member


Last edited by Oldtrader3 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:01 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 724
Location: Wyoming
Desert Fox wrote:
You also need a robust mounting system when shooting big boomer. I found out just last night while removing the MK4 from my 338 Lapua so that I can mount the Nightforce. As I'm unscrewing the screws from a Seekins ring, It felt like a few were really loose. I thought that the screw were just came undone due to recoil but it turns out that the screws are breaking apart. The screws are probably sub quality and can't handle the violent recoil of my 338. This rifle is really hard on optics. It reaped apart two IOR's when I first got it. Only the MK4 can withstand it's recoil. I hope the Nightforce will do as well.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


DF, I had the same thing happen with my 338 lapua until I switched over to the burris tactical rings. I have not looked back since.

_________________
If you cant make the shot then don't take it!
Proud member of the NRA


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:18 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:05 pm
Posts: 8406
Location: I-5 Lala Land North, Washington State
I think for any scope that is going to be used and mounted on a .300 Mag or larger, should have premium rings which are built to mil-std specifications. I use TPS rings and they are very strongly built. Besides which the better rings are closer tolerance on bore alignment and hold the scope in line and precisely. Saving $50 on rings and ruining a $400+ scope from recoil misalignment doesn't make sense.

_________________
CDR3
Veteran, NRA Member


Last edited by Oldtrader3 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:04 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:45 pm
Posts: 22541
Location: Cheyenne, WY
That is not a bad idea Charlie. But I have to say some mags (ahem 378 BEE) need them more than others.

_________________


Weatherby...There is no replacement for displacement!


My blog. Please Comment and Follow
https://thehandloadinglog.wordpress.com


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:18 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:05 pm
Posts: 8406
Location: I-5 Lala Land North, Washington State
The standard Swiss automatic made screws which are soft steel do break sometmes. I try to limit my torque to the recommended 25 inch pounds, however even then, these cheap rings screws break in use after awhile.

You have to realize that a big scope like the 6.5 -20x50 scope will hve a moment load on the base and ring screws during firing of over 200 pounds. Continual loads ot this moment magnitude will stress and break the 6-48 base screws eventually.

_________________
CDR3
Veteran, NRA Member


Last edited by Oldtrader3 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:51 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:12 am
Posts: 400
Location: Western Montana
Guy Miner wrote:
I've seen a 6.5-20x Leupold lose it's zero (badly) by having the rifle simply kicked over while sitting on the firing line on a short bipod. This big U.S. Optics scope never even budged. Very impressive. Yet another reason to go with a robust scope & mounting system.


Guy,
I saw this same thing once with a Leupold VX-II 4-12 AO during a pdog hunt. While laying prone, I swiveled my shoulders to point my binocs toward another area, and accidentally bumped the 223 rifle, which was sitting on the ground on a short Harris bi-pod. It fell over - an easy tipover in soft dirt. This caused the zero to shift horizontally some 3-4" at 100 yards.

I first thought it was the scope, now I suspect the Burris dovetail mounts. The dovetail could have allowed the ring to shift sideways - methinks...

I will be installing a set of steel Warne rings and mounts before long. BT

_________________
Were it so easy...


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 4426
The flex was incredible, its amazing that it returns back to zero !!!!

_________________
Good hunting and have a great day!!!


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:00 pm
Posts: 1442
Location: Northern Idaho
"Desert Fox" You also need a robust mounting system when shooting big boomer. I found out just last night while removing the MK4 from my 338 Lapua so that I can mount the Nightforce. As I'm unscrewing the screws from a Seekins ring, It felt like a few were really loose. I thought that the screw were just came undone due to recoil but it turns out that the screws are breaking apart. The screws are probably sub quality and can't handle the violent recoil of my 338. This rifle is really hard on optics. It reaped apart two IOR's when I first got it. Only the MK4 can withstand it's recoil. I hope the Nightforce will do as well."Desert Fox"

Wow talk about abuse, I've seen this can happen but since you brought it up I've always thought IOR Valdada scopes were robust? I was looking at their new 3.5-18x50 FFP scope for a 338LM, but didn't like that screw/cap below the Objective adjustment on the left side of the turret. I thought it might hinder mounting it and/or cause an issue with some of the different one piece base and ring mounts?

Anyway I went a different route and just bought a Premier 3-15x50 that will be mounted in a Sako three ring base. I haven't gotten it yet, but I'll be comparing it to my Kahles K312 II. I would suspect that it hold up to the abuse of the Lapua Magnum, but only time will tell?

_________________
Cole

“It is not by muscle, speed, or physical dexterity that great things are achieved, but by reflection, force of character, and judgment.”


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Why one needs a robust scope.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:01 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:05 pm
Posts: 8406
Location: I-5 Lala Land North, Washington State
I have sheared off ring screws in Leupold rings. That is why I have mounted all of my standard ring and mount rifles with either low or medium Tactical Precision Systems (TPS) rings mounted on Warne steel bases both Picatinny and Weaver type steel bases. The TPS rings have tempered steel ring screws that will not break ever at 25 inch pounds of torque to the ring screws.

_________________
CDR3
Veteran, NRA Member


Top
Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Moderators: NoslerV, Nosler4, JD338, NOSLER, FOTIS Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

This forum is:

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net