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 Post subject: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:50 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
Posts: 1550
Goes that way sometimes. You think you have an understanding of how things work, then there's things that make you scratch your head.

Got a Rem 760 in 35 Remington that shoots factory core lokts from an inch, out to 1.5", at 100 yds with 1.25" being the standard.

Put a post on here about that gun with re-worked factory ammo. I'm now running those core lokts 200fps faster than factory.......4 shot groups are 1.25". Different point of impact obviously, but same group size.

I have them loaded at factory length of what came out of the box. Just out of curiosity I checked, and son of a gun if that length isn't jammed into the lands. :shock: I was expecting it to be the other way. No pressure issues but was a shock none the less.

Loaded some up seated deeper so that they are backed off the lands. Tested them out.....you guessed it, triangular group that measures 1.25". Primers don't look much different, neither way shows pressure.

Craziest thing I ever seen. Big changes results in the same group. I guess at least I can say it's not fussy with those Core Lokts. Load up what suits your fancy as far as pressure and speed and it shoots the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:57 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:09 pm
Posts: 97
Location: East, & a bit north, of Eden
Well, now you know. The rifle sounds like a keeper.


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:49 pm
Posts: 33026
Location: Northern British Columbia
I've had a couple of rifles that demonstrated the same phenomenon as you've just described. While I was uncomfortable with jamming into the lands, I could not deny the data obtained--excellent accuracy with no pressure signs. In one major instance, I back the bullet down 0.002 inches. There was no change in accuracy and no change in pressure (or velocity). However, I felt a little better. Each firing system is unique.

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
Posts: 1550
DrMike wrote:
I've had a couple of rifles that demonstrated the same phenomenon as you've just described. While I was uncomfortable with jamming into the lands, I could not deny the data obtained--excellent accuracy with no pressure signs. In one major instance, I back the bullet down 0.002 inches. There was no change in accuracy and no change in pressure (or velocity). However, I felt a little better. Each firing system is unique.


Yeah unusual for sure. I might go back into the lands, just not jammed near as hard.

I just loaded up 3 to get a line on if it was obviously better or worse. I fully expected one way or the other given the difference in seating depth plus what should be a difference in pressure. Guess I shoulda known better when 200fps didn't change group size.

I can't see shots that are not out on the white of the paper with this rifle's 1.5- 5x scope. Didn't know what they did until I walked up to the target, just knew they all were in the dot. Measures 1.252. Crazy. Lol.


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 Post subject: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:05 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 1492
Excellent results. Core lokts could be on of the most under respected bullets... by reloaders. We all tend to look for perfection... but I’d bet... that bullet has killed more game than any other in NA. Most of my guns are 2-3” with corelokt... which is plenty accurate in Michigan.


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:08 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
Posts: 1550
mjcmichigan wrote:
Excellent results. Core lokts could be on of the most under respected bullets... by reloaders. We all tend to look for perfection... but I’d bet... that bullet has killed more game than any other in NA. Most of my guns are 2-3” with corelokt... which is plenty accurate in Michigan.


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Thanks. Yeah, what's that old saying? Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good? You keep doing what works well for you. Game could give 2 hoots if your rifle shoots 2-3" when it's hit in the boiler room with a well designed bullet. In that respect, that's all that matters.

Although in this case I wasn't chasing perfect, merely curious as to whether I could safely increase speed and not destroy accuracy from what it was doing with factory rounds. As it turns out though speed was dramatically increased and accuracy stayed the same, so it worked out well in this instance.

Core Lokts are indeed a very good cup and core bullet. I've got a pretty good stash of them for this rifle, but will probably also experiment next yr with the 180 speer FP's, just because I'm a nutty reloader like many on here. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:07 am 
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 12:42 am
Posts: 573
Location: Germany, Lower Saxony
Nutty reloader?
No idea what you are talking about.
Ok. My hunting ammo supply will last for my sons lifetimes, too.
And I am always happy if someone I load for gets a new gun. 4 308's are waiting.

Well.
Maybe I know what you are talking about ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:35 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 1492
One of the thinks I like about this forum, we’re all particular, but still flexible enough to play nice with others!


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:37 am 

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:12 am
Posts: 936
Interesting read and results.

I don’t have the experience and knowledge of many on this forum, though I have loaded for 40+ different firearms. While I should have learned a long time ago to not expect a certain result, I am still often surprised (both pleasantly and unpleasantly) at the outcome when I finally put bullets to paper at the range.

I would have to say your experience here has to rank as a very pleasant surprise.


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
Posts: 1550
Alderman wrote:
Interesting read and results.

I don’t have the experience and knowledge of many on this forum, though I have loaded for 40+ different firearms. While I should have learned a long time ago to not expect a certain result, I am still often surprised (both pleasantly and unpleasantly) at the outcome when I finally put bullets to paper at the range.

I would have to say your experience here has to rank as a very pleasant surprise.


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Yeah, I was most pleasantly surprised at the speed increase while staying under any pressure problems, to do that without making groups any different with this bullet ended up very good. Although puzzling to say the least.

If I work some loads up for those 180 Speer FP's next spring and it displays a similar group size that remains unchanged through velocity increases, I'm gonna give up on claiming I know anything about this particular rifle and just call it Rock. As in, does not move. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:43 am
Posts: 565
Shade Tree my 760 like yours has a short chamber,throat but I never checked if factory loads were into the lands. I did back off my reloads so as not to be into them. Thanks for the information. this has been a interesting thread for me. Dan.


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
Posts: 1550
wvbuckbuster wrote:
Shade Tree my 760 like yours has a short chamber,throat but I never checked if factory loads were into the lands. I did back off my reloads so as not to be into them. Thanks for the information. this has been a interesting thread for me. Dan.



Dan, it's possible they were not figuring on anybody wildcatting on the 35 Rem so a short throat with some bullets into the lands on factory level pressured loads were never going to be a problem in a 760. Still isn't with me as I worked up and am still under any normal pressure signs you would look for in a standard cartridge/chamber.

One problem as I know you'd be aware, is that compared to standard cartridges, the 35 Rem has an almost none existent speed bump of a shoulder. Doesn't give a lot of room between standard seating depth, and pushing the base of the bullet below the shoulder.

I seated as deep as I was comfortable with and still was only .010 off the lands. Perhaps 180 Speer's would give me more breathing room, don't know.

Not an issue being into the lands as I tested function of both factory loaded rounds, and my loaded rounds at the jammed length, and being both are crimped, they eject normally without pulling the bullet out any. The shape of that 35 cal 200 gr RN bullet might have something to do with that also. Just needs a nudge to break free.

I'm likely going to load back into the lands, just not jammed near as hard as factory length. .010 into the lands would be a good compromise of seating depth and throat length with this bullet.


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:13 pm
Posts: 1695
Location: center of Pa
Shade Tree , I've found being at the lands , just kissing the lands , light touch on the lands ,whatever you call it is a bad place to be . a slight variance in anything will cause either a jump , or a jam . this makes precise seating depth very critical . I know you said the rifle is not being picky , but I wanted to caution you on what I've found .


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:01 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
Posts: 1550
jimbires wrote:
Shade Tree , I've found being at the lands , just kissing the lands , light touch on the lands ,whatever you call it is a bad place to be . a slight variance in anything will cause either a jump , or a jam . this makes precise seating depth very critical . I know you said the rifle is not being picky , but I wanted to caution you on what I've found .


Jim, I'm not a person that typically loads right at the lands, but I couldn't agree more. You likely have infinitely more experience with that than me so maybe I just got lucky in my line of reasoning about it.

The only rifle I've intentionally loaded at the lands is my 22-250. I started load development all the way through at .010 in the lands. When I got my best load without pressure I also tried .010 off. It liked .010 off better. My way of thinking was to be either in or out, anything close could go from just off, to just touching, which is inconsistent in itself.

That being said, would you go heavier in than .010 to be sure it's always in? Like 015-.020?


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:24 pm 
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Location: Tennessee
Some rifles are like that.... they're rare though.

My Nosler rifle, 280 Ackley, shoots every single load I've ever tried in it to ~.75 MOA at 100 yards.

I've done it several times since I've had it, shot 5 round groups using 5 different bullets, weights from 140 to 168 grains, and it'll be a 3/4 inch group at 100 yards every time.

I've never seen anything like it, and have no idea how to explain it... that's why I've often said, it is by far the most consistent rifle I've ever shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:04 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:13 pm
Posts: 1695
Location: center of Pa
ShadeTree wrote:
jimbires wrote:
Shade Tree , I've found being at the lands , just kissing the lands , light touch on the lands ,whatever you call it is a bad place to be . a slight variance in anything will cause either a jump , or a jam . this makes precise seating depth very critical . I know you said the rifle is not being picky , but I wanted to caution you on what I've found .


Jim, I'm not a person that typically loads right at the lands, but I couldn't agree more. You likely have infinitely more experience with that than me so maybe I just got lucky in my line of reasoning about it.

The only rifle I've intentionally loaded at the lands is my 22-250. I started load development all the way through at .010 in the lands. When I got my best load without pressure I also tried .010 off. It liked .010 off better. My way of thinking was to be either in or out, anything close could go from just off, to just touching, which is inconsistent in itself.




.010 in should be plenty to be sure you're always in . the problem with seating in the lands is sometimes the bullet sticks in the barrel . I have one rifle like this , I don't chamber one until I get a shot . if I loose out on the shot , I'll fire the rifle at the end of the day . this sure is better than dealing with powder all down through the trigger , and a bullet stuck in the barrel .

That being said, would you go heavier in than .010 to be sure it's always in? Like 015-.020?


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:37 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
Posts: 1550
Thank you Jim for that clarification. That's one of the reasons I don't usually load hunting rounds at the lands....I typically load out a minimum of .025-.030 off, then from there wherever the rifle shoots best.

I will admit that for the first time I wish I had one of those Hornady base to ogive measuring tools for a more accurate reading verses my cleaning rod method.

Things are running close and I'm dealing with a generously soft lead round nosed bullet, so more variance in overall length than normal. Also obviously not a match type bullet so even taking those length variances into consideration I'm getting some variances in ogive into the lands measurements.

I have 7 bullets pulled that I've now very carefully measured over and over to the lands. I was a little off on my initial measurement, but there's no question some bullets are into the lands at factory length.

But I have a little more breathing room than I first thought. I believe I can load at a depth that will give me .020 off with the average bullet. That will be better.

A person never stops running into things that makes him put his thinking cap on. Ha. Thanks again for your advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:50 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:13 pm
Posts: 1695
Location: center of Pa
I've wanted the Hornady tool a time or two also , but I still don't have one . I flatten the neck a little on a fired unsized case , to find my lands .

I've pushed the jump pretty close a few times , but I'm doing a little different game than you are . you're using round nose bullets , with a crimp . I'm sure there is a bunch more wiggle room needed loading this stuff . I like reading all the reloading stuff guys run into , I'm glad you guys post .

I won't guess how many times I've said , " the more I know the less I understand " . I'm always ready to jump down the next rabbit hole though , in search of something .


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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes the more you know the less you know.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:29 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:50 am
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jimbires wrote:
I've wanted the Hornady tool a time or two also , but I still don't have one . I flatten the neck a little on a fired unsized case , to find my lands .

I've pushed the jump pretty close a few times , but I'm doing a little different game than you are . you're using round nose bullets , with a crimp . I'm sure there is a bunch more wiggle room needed loading this stuff . I like reading all the reloading stuff guys run into , I'm glad you guys post .

I won't guess how many times I've said , " the more I know the less I understand " . I'm always ready to jump down the next rabbit hole though , in search of something .


Yep, and wiggle room is something I've unfortunately not much of with a short chamber and a 35 Rem, but that's okay, just got to play the cards I'm dealt.

A 35 Rem only has .045 total distance from the base of the neck until you're at the shoulder/case body junction. Less than 1/3 the distance you would have with most standard cartridges.

Challenges creates learning I guess. Ha. It's all working out, just will have to measure each box of bullets I pull as I go along down the road, to make sure where I'm at on that box with those tight tolerances to the lands. Not going to trust that they're all the same.


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