Last night a friend called me over to look at a couple of rifles he wanted to sell. He needed help establishing a price. What he has are two original (I believe) 03-A3's in almost new condition. They are both WWII vintage models with matching numbers, correct proof marks, all of the correct wood and finish, and seemingly perfect. One is a Remington and the other a Smith Corona. The Smith seems unfired, with little no wear on the magazine follower or rails, and no scratching in the chamber. Its parkerized with an light stock and oil finish. The Remington has the darker finish, a crack in the stock near the buttplate and some marks showing firing. I am taking them to my gun guy for him to have a look see, with his bore scope, bright lights and experience. He also has a new blue book. Any other ideas or references would be appreciated.
03-A3
- Thread starter Elkman
- Start date
CatskillCrawler
Handloader
- Jul 30, 2011
- 1,205
- 4
I think I will change my Christmas list...
Sorry, I don't have a knowledgeable appraisal but I will say that whenever I find something which matches your friend's rifles, I am tight for cash. :x I've seen -03A3s in decent shape priced anywheres from $400-1000. Matching S/Ns may drive the price high.
Tddeangelo has a mess of knowledge with the MilSurps and may be able to help you.
Sorry, I don't have a knowledgeable appraisal but I will say that whenever I find something which matches your friend's rifles, I am tight for cash. :x I've seen -03A3s in decent shape priced anywheres from $400-1000. Matching S/Ns may drive the price high.
Tddeangelo has a mess of knowledge with the MilSurps and may be able to help you.
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 17,895
- 6,662
That more-worn Remington sounds like my kind of rifle.
Sorry - no idea what they're worth.
Guy
Sorry - no idea what they're worth.
Guy
- Thread starter
- #4
I was hoping that he would pick up on the thread.
Spent 3 hours with my more knowledgeable friend. The Remington is a armory refurb. It still has the correct parts for the age date of manufacture but most likely not the parts it came with. The Smith Corona, still is the find of the two, we were unable to find any modifications to it. We bore scoped and cleaned barrels today, as well as oil on dry parts. Both have bright and shiny barrels, but the Smith C has a lot less rounds through it. We are thinking full value of $1300 for the Smith at 98% of new, and around $600 for the Remington. Of course they will probably go for somewhat less but thats a good starting point. We are still searching and collecting more info before he advertises.
tddeangelo
Handloader
- May 18, 2011
- 2,024
- 21
I'd need to see pics, but I think the prices given are somewhat optimistic. The RA price might be attainable, but I'd bet not, given the condition. I'd put that at a $500 gun. Prices have climbed somewhat since CMP no longer has a reliable supply.
While it's POSSIBLE the SC might hit that value, I'd bet against it. If it's original finish, it will be a flat, greyish color on the receiver when parked. Fewer SC's were made than RA's, so that is going for it.
It would need to be about 100% and all correct to fetch that kinda price, though. $950-$1100 is more in line, I think, with market values, and even that might be optimistic. I've seen a crapload of 1903's and variants on the market and in gunshows lately. Not sure I can come with a reason why, but they're there, and prices reflect it. Unless it's a jaw dropper, most are $500-$750 guns.
If pics are possible, that would really help me get a better feel for what these guns might be (or might not be).
Also, if you can lay hands on a round of surplus M2 Ball ammo, that can be used to show muzzle wear.
While it's POSSIBLE the SC might hit that value, I'd bet against it. If it's original finish, it will be a flat, greyish color on the receiver when parked. Fewer SC's were made than RA's, so that is going for it.
It would need to be about 100% and all correct to fetch that kinda price, though. $950-$1100 is more in line, I think, with market values, and even that might be optimistic. I've seen a crapload of 1903's and variants on the market and in gunshows lately. Not sure I can come with a reason why, but they're there, and prices reflect it. Unless it's a jaw dropper, most are $500-$750 guns.
If pics are possible, that would really help me get a better feel for what these guns might be (or might not be).
Also, if you can lay hands on a round of surplus M2 Ball ammo, that can be used to show muzzle wear.
- Thread starter
- #7
tddeangelo, thanks for the followup
I have pics, but not the hardware to get them off the camera. Probably in a week or so. I am with you on the real value, we were pulling the "max" values from the Blue Book, which are of course full value.
The Blue Book adds a 25% price premium for the SC because there were fewer of them. I would call the metal plating color on the SC as more like a green olive than grey. There are no shiny, wear marks on the loading rails, magazine follower, nor the bolt face or extractor. The bolt shroud on the SC is somewhat sticky to the touch, and has remnants of what we think is residual packing grease, around the bolt shroud. My gun guy has a $700 bore analyzer, and we went over the inside very carefully. Some pitting here and there, marks from a worn out chamber reamer, and little or no copper or barrel wear. Its really a clean piece.
He did state that the barrels on these two rifles were superior to a new Remington he looked at not long ago. I will follow up with the pictures when I can.
I have pics, but not the hardware to get them off the camera. Probably in a week or so. I am with you on the real value, we were pulling the "max" values from the Blue Book, which are of course full value.
The Blue Book adds a 25% price premium for the SC because there were fewer of them. I would call the metal plating color on the SC as more like a green olive than grey. There are no shiny, wear marks on the loading rails, magazine follower, nor the bolt face or extractor. The bolt shroud on the SC is somewhat sticky to the touch, and has remnants of what we think is residual packing grease, around the bolt shroud. My gun guy has a $700 bore analyzer, and we went over the inside very carefully. Some pitting here and there, marks from a worn out chamber reamer, and little or no copper or barrel wear. Its really a clean piece.
He did state that the barrels on these two rifles were superior to a new Remington he looked at not long ago. I will follow up with the pictures when I can.
tddeangelo
Handloader
- May 18, 2011
- 2,024
- 21
If the receiver (or any other parts, for that matter) on the SC are not flat grey in color, they are refinished, probably during a reconditioning program at an arsenal, and that will negate a lot of the SC collectability, unfortunately. The SC junkies who collect will want the SC finish.
I'd call the SC gun a $650-$700 gun with a refinish (arsenal done) on it like that.
Then there is also the matter of whether the barrel dates (found just aft of the front sight on the top of the barrel) match the receiver serial numbers. The US did not serialize parts, which means the concept of "matching numbers" doesn't work with US guns. That was a European trend to do that. The US used drawing numbers (M1 Garand and onward), otherwise it takes an erstwhile collector to have the eye to determine if all the various parts are "correct" for the serial number on the receiver.
It's a tough one to really put a value on....but if you do get pics, I'll see what I can tell you from them.
I'd call the SC gun a $650-$700 gun with a refinish (arsenal done) on it like that.
Then there is also the matter of whether the barrel dates (found just aft of the front sight on the top of the barrel) match the receiver serial numbers. The US did not serialize parts, which means the concept of "matching numbers" doesn't work with US guns. That was a European trend to do that. The US used drawing numbers (M1 Garand and onward), otherwise it takes an erstwhile collector to have the eye to determine if all the various parts are "correct" for the serial number on the receiver.
It's a tough one to really put a value on....but if you do get pics, I'll see what I can tell you from them.
Wincheringen
Handloader
- Jan 10, 2012
- 931
- 1
You'd be surprised what they will go for on GB. Take a look at recently completed auctions.
tddeangelo
Handloader
- May 18, 2011
- 2,024
- 21
I have. Most sold in the $400-$800 range. One, and only one, went over $1000, and that sold for $2000. When I looked at it, I don't know why. It does not merit that price. It's rearsenaled, as witnessed by an "FJA" stamp on the stock. Fantastic shape, but someone really wanted it bad to pay that much for it.
The rest of the auctions are in line with the price ranges I gave. If you look at auctions that completed but received NO BIDS, then you see prices in the $1000-range as the starting bid levels set on those auctions. Since no one bid, they were completed auctions, but no one bought the rifles involved in those auctions.
I don't mean this to take away from the rifles. I have a Remington 1903A3 and it's a great rifle that I treasure. They just aren't worth a mint, and since CMP had a butt-load of VA returns of the 1903/1903A3 when the Army told all vet organizations they had to move to the M1 Garand and to return all 1903's/1903A3's/1917's, the market got flooded and has been ever since. Most of those CMP rifles sold for $500-$600, so the value really came down on the whole 1903 family of rifles. 1917's weren't hit AS hard, but they dropped in value a bit, too.
As with anything milsurp, that's a temporary dip, as they only made so many of the things and no one is making any more originals. Time only increases their value.
The rest of the auctions are in line with the price ranges I gave. If you look at auctions that completed but received NO BIDS, then you see prices in the $1000-range as the starting bid levels set on those auctions. Since no one bid, they were completed auctions, but no one bought the rifles involved in those auctions.
I don't mean this to take away from the rifles. I have a Remington 1903A3 and it's a great rifle that I treasure. They just aren't worth a mint, and since CMP had a butt-load of VA returns of the 1903/1903A3 when the Army told all vet organizations they had to move to the M1 Garand and to return all 1903's/1903A3's/1917's, the market got flooded and has been ever since. Most of those CMP rifles sold for $500-$600, so the value really came down on the whole 1903 family of rifles. 1917's weren't hit AS hard, but they dropped in value a bit, too.
As with anything milsurp, that's a temporary dip, as they only made so many of the things and no one is making any more originals. Time only increases their value.
Wincheringen
Handloader
- Jan 10, 2012
- 931
- 1
I can't argue since I don't know what we're even looking at, but a true 98% condition SC is definitely going to go for more than $1300 at auction.
Being a Remington target .22LR collector, I know all about what somebody is willing to pay for a gun no longer made. I'm certain if I looked up 'sickness' in the dictionary it would indicate something along the lines of searching for Rem 40x parts.
Being a Remington target .22LR collector, I know all about what somebody is willing to pay for a gun no longer made. I'm certain if I looked up 'sickness' in the dictionary it would indicate something along the lines of searching for Rem 40x parts.
tddeangelo
Handloader
- May 18, 2011
- 2,024
- 21
I saw a 1903A3 SC rifle yesterday at a show. Pretty similar to how this one is described...same color park, same overall condition as described. Tag read $900 and no one was that interested in it, as he still had it at 12PM on Sunday and people were pawing up the other guns he had.
Value really, truly is what someone is willing to pay for something. I've seen stuff sold for stupidly high prices to people that I personally felt got taken badly, but were tickled with their purchase. On the flip side, I'm still giving my father a LOT of grief because he passed up a Ross rifle that he described as being in really, really good condition at an estate auction. It was gaveled at all of $50. He told me after the fact and I could have cried.
I also was stupid enough to see a Swede M94 carbine, matching numbers, proper age appearance on all components (i.e. not refinished) with a correct sling on the used rack at Cabela's for $350. Being a few years back, I had no means of scratching up $350 and would have had to credit card it, so I didn't buy it. I did, however, hatch a plan to cobble up a couple hundred bucks and figured I'd eat the interest on the rest and still come out ahead on a very valuable rifle. Then....I still can't believe this.... I thought "Gee, no one seems to ever buy milsurps off these racks, I'll let it sit a week or so and try to haggle." Ha! It was gone in a couple of days!
I'm not trying to be a downer here, but I've seen very, very, very few 1903A3's sell for 4-figure prices. I saw what looked to be true and authentic M1903A4's yesterday at a show for $2000-$2500. It would be hard to get well over a grand then for an SC 1903A3.
Now....
Find me a pristine, correct, "high number" Rock Island 1903 and I'll show you a gun that easily tops $1000 for a selling price.
OR....
Find me a really good condition, all-correct Rockola-made M1 Carbine, and I'll show you a stratospheric selling price that someone WILL pay.
Along that note.... friend a while back said to me, "Hey, my dad was in the Navy during WWII (friend is older than I) and he brought a gun home. Could you look at it and tell me if it's worth anything?" Since I love to look at old guns, I said, "Sure!"
When I saw him next, he uncased an M1 Carbine....one that looked like it was just issued, and was in WWII config (flip-sight on the back, no bayonet band, flat-top bolt, push-button safety, high-wood stock, etc.). I was trying to stuff my eyeballs back in my head....and then I looked at the receiver and saw "Winchester". Then I looked at the barrel and saw it was matching barrel that looked freakin' NEW.
Gulp.
While not really the "proper" channels to acquire said carbine, I would think he is safe after nearly 80 years since the carbine was "appropriated" by his now-deceased father. This sort of thing happened a lot after WWII and I don't think anyone has ever been prosecuted for such, especially if the serviceman who brought home the firearm is deceased.
At any rate, I told him that for sentimental reasons, that carbine should not be sold, ever. I then cautioned him that if he ever DID decide to sell it, that it was worth a very sizeable sum of money, and that he should sell it only with assistance from someone knowledgeable in M1 Carbines, or he will almost surely not get what the carbine is worth.
Values are all over the map. A Garand that looks like any other ho-hum run of the mill M1 could fetch a princely sum because of it's manufacturer, dates, drawing numbers on parts, etc. Heck, I sold a ferrule off a rifle I bought at CMP for $30 just for the ferrule because someone saw it on a rifle I had and wanted it real badly (it was a forged/machined one instead of stamped). I didn't care, because it was on a rifle that should have had a stamped ferrule anyway. He was happy, and I was happy. He gave me $30 and a stamped ferrule, he got the part he wanted, we both won.
If you guys think there are "rifle loonies" among those of us who talk hunting rifles, you ain't seen nothin' till you get to talking to M1 junkies. And yes, I mean "junkies." :lol:
Value really, truly is what someone is willing to pay for something. I've seen stuff sold for stupidly high prices to people that I personally felt got taken badly, but were tickled with their purchase. On the flip side, I'm still giving my father a LOT of grief because he passed up a Ross rifle that he described as being in really, really good condition at an estate auction. It was gaveled at all of $50. He told me after the fact and I could have cried.
I also was stupid enough to see a Swede M94 carbine, matching numbers, proper age appearance on all components (i.e. not refinished) with a correct sling on the used rack at Cabela's for $350. Being a few years back, I had no means of scratching up $350 and would have had to credit card it, so I didn't buy it. I did, however, hatch a plan to cobble up a couple hundred bucks and figured I'd eat the interest on the rest and still come out ahead on a very valuable rifle. Then....I still can't believe this.... I thought "Gee, no one seems to ever buy milsurps off these racks, I'll let it sit a week or so and try to haggle." Ha! It was gone in a couple of days!
I'm not trying to be a downer here, but I've seen very, very, very few 1903A3's sell for 4-figure prices. I saw what looked to be true and authentic M1903A4's yesterday at a show for $2000-$2500. It would be hard to get well over a grand then for an SC 1903A3.
Now....
Find me a pristine, correct, "high number" Rock Island 1903 and I'll show you a gun that easily tops $1000 for a selling price.
OR....
Find me a really good condition, all-correct Rockola-made M1 Carbine, and I'll show you a stratospheric selling price that someone WILL pay.
Along that note.... friend a while back said to me, "Hey, my dad was in the Navy during WWII (friend is older than I) and he brought a gun home. Could you look at it and tell me if it's worth anything?" Since I love to look at old guns, I said, "Sure!"
When I saw him next, he uncased an M1 Carbine....one that looked like it was just issued, and was in WWII config (flip-sight on the back, no bayonet band, flat-top bolt, push-button safety, high-wood stock, etc.). I was trying to stuff my eyeballs back in my head....and then I looked at the receiver and saw "Winchester". Then I looked at the barrel and saw it was matching barrel that looked freakin' NEW.
Gulp.
While not really the "proper" channels to acquire said carbine, I would think he is safe after nearly 80 years since the carbine was "appropriated" by his now-deceased father. This sort of thing happened a lot after WWII and I don't think anyone has ever been prosecuted for such, especially if the serviceman who brought home the firearm is deceased.
At any rate, I told him that for sentimental reasons, that carbine should not be sold, ever. I then cautioned him that if he ever DID decide to sell it, that it was worth a very sizeable sum of money, and that he should sell it only with assistance from someone knowledgeable in M1 Carbines, or he will almost surely not get what the carbine is worth.
Values are all over the map. A Garand that looks like any other ho-hum run of the mill M1 could fetch a princely sum because of it's manufacturer, dates, drawing numbers on parts, etc. Heck, I sold a ferrule off a rifle I bought at CMP for $30 just for the ferrule because someone saw it on a rifle I had and wanted it real badly (it was a forged/machined one instead of stamped). I didn't care, because it was on a rifle that should have had a stamped ferrule anyway. He was happy, and I was happy. He gave me $30 and a stamped ferrule, he got the part he wanted, we both won.
If you guys think there are "rifle loonies" among those of us who talk hunting rifles, you ain't seen nothin' till you get to talking to M1 junkies. And yes, I mean "junkies." :lol:
Wincheringen
Handloader
- Jan 10, 2012
- 931
- 1
Like I said, you'd be surprised what an auction will bring. I don't want to brag, but I've more than tripled my money invested in several 'extra' copies of Rem target rifles, that I advertised for what I had in them. I even had somebody try to lowball me on one saying the M37 was only worth $200. The bidding stopped at $1650.
roysclockgun
Handloader
- Dec 17, 2005
- 736
- 1
I regularly buy and sell US military rifles. The low end on any of the '03 family today, is around $400 for a complete, fireable rifle in decent overall conditon. At an Orlando gun show recently, I bought a Rem. made US Model 1903 for $400 net. There is no high end and some people are asking ridiculous prices. Whether they are realizing those prices or not, I do not know.
Most of the ones that I sell, both M1903 and M03A3, run in the $800 to $900 range.
Steve Ashe
Most of the ones that I sell, both M1903 and M03A3, run in the $800 to $900 range.
Steve Ashe
- Thread starter
- #15
Here are some pics. Photo 24 and 26 are the same rifle. It is the better one of the two. Picture 23 is of the armory rebuild. Its still in great condition but the other is better. Here are a couple more pics.
View attachment PIC_0024.JPG
View attachment PIC_0023.JPG
View attachment PIC_0026.JPG
This is a better comparison
View attachment PIC_0024.JPG
View attachment PIC_0023.JPG
View attachment PIC_0026.JPG
This is a better comparison
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,589
- 6,757
Delightful rifle, Bill. It does bring back memories. I game mine away to a friend who had been very generous to me. That was about fifteen years ago.
roysclockgun
Handloader
- Dec 17, 2005
- 736
- 1
My opinion on value :$800-$900 depending on bore condition. "Your mileage may vary!"
Good cartouche : Col Frank J. Atwood, Chief Inspector.
Rebuild black color on receiver. Original green parkerizing would be from WWII.
Straight "S" style stock.
Steve Ashe
Good cartouche : Col Frank J. Atwood, Chief Inspector.
Rebuild black color on receiver. Original green parkerizing would be from WWII.
Straight "S" style stock.
Steve Ashe
- Thread starter
- #19
I messed up. There are two separate rifles. The middle picture is of the armory rebuild, that one that has the most wear on it. The other two are of the pristine one. I will clean that up tonight. Sorry. I have more rifle pics, and more antlers and elk.
Roy if you look at the top and bottom pics. the color matches, I think I have another photo of that rifle from the other side.
Roy if you look at the top and bottom pics. the color matches, I think I have another photo of that rifle from the other side.
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 7
I had a sporter with about the same range serial number and the green parkerizing finish from WWII. I used mine for deer hunting for awhile when I was in my mid 20's. I bought it with a "sporterized" military stock and military sights at Sears for less than $100. in about 1966.
Haven't seen one of these 03-A3's in years with the green WWII parkerizing. Brings back memories. Great rifles!
Haven't seen one of these 03-A3's in years with the green WWII parkerizing. Brings back memories. Great rifles!
