.17 Remington Primers.......hmmmmm

[Powerstroke]

I finally made it back to the range today with a combo I could get on the paper. I posted a few weeks ago, about concerns of some Hornady bullets that were tarnished / corroded, but I ran them through the tumbler, and they are all shine new.
This is an early 70's Remington 700 that has always had a Redfield 3x9 wide-view on it as long as I can remember. I can't say this would be my first choice, but more for nostalgia reasons I kept it on. Long and sort, somewhere in the last twenty plus years of not being shot, the Redfield decided it didn't want to adjust any longer. ( found this out a couple weeks ago )

Fast forward to today >>>> I had a spare straight 8X Leupy in the safe that I decided to mount on it, and I was off and running. A few shots to get it dialed in, and planned on a last 5 shot group before leaving.

The first shot of the group was right by about three inches to my surprise. Upon inspecting the case / primer, I found the primer almost completely pierced, but also pushed inward. ( This ruined my 5 shot group I was expecting to be good )
I went ahead and shot 5 more, 4 of which are all touching one another, while the 5th is slightly low. Out of those five more, I had one other primer look the same. In all my days of loading, I've never experienced this..... thoughts?
The powder I used is quite old, but I'd suspect if it's bad, it wouldn't have grouped as it did??

Thoughts appreciated

 

[Alderman]

What's the powder?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Powerstroke]

IMR 3031 - .6 grains under max. To my knowledge, it's the only load, powder that has ever been used in it.

 

[DrMike]

Mark, if the powder was "bad," you would have noticed either the oxidation (reddish powder) or an acrid smell. If these weren't noticeable, the powder was fine. I would be more inclined to suggest that what you witnessed is incomplete seating of the primer. This could be from a variety of causes--seating tool not properly registered, primer pockets out of spec, primers themselves out of spec (I just ran into this in the week past) or some other reason. That the shot ruined your group could be as simple as the rifle requiring a fouling shot. The pronounced firing pin marks inclines me to believe the pockets themselves are tight and the primers still have room to go forward. On firing, the brass is shoved back violently before the spring drives the firing pin back, causing the indentation. Of course, I'm only speculating at this point since I haven't actually witnessed the loading process/firing. Still, I'd be inclined to think that the primers are not fully seated.

 

[FOTIS]

Try 22-24 H4895 That was the sweet spot in my 17 Rem with fed 205m

 

[JD338]

Mark,

What primer are you using?
Could be a softer primer cup.

JD338

 

[nvbroncrider]

Have you fired this rifle before and not seen this? Or is this a new rifle to you?

 

[Powerstroke]

Thanks for the input Gents -

My Mother purchased the rifle for my dad new in the early 70's - It's one of a twin I guess, cause there is a 7mag in the same flavor.

Part of the equation I can't remember is which box already had primed brass from years back, and which ones I resized and primed, as I loaded about 200 rounds for this upcoming weekend. Pretty much the only primers Dad or I have ever used are Reming Bench-Rest or prefer CCI BR's. Since the ones I'm concerned about aren't silver in color, I'm guessing Remington primers? Again, possibly primed 20+ years ago, and just upside-down in the shell box.

Mike - I already had about 10 rounds down the tube getting it on paper, and sighted in on another spot. I would like to call that one out of the group the fouler shot, but.........can't.
Powder looked normal and smelled ......... "great" Almost hate to say it, but nothing quite like opening a can of powder!

There is probably only 1500 rounds or so down the tube on this gun total. Brass would have been fired a few times, but not excessive, and I did check case length on all empty cases before I loaded them.

 

[DrMike]

I can speculate, but it is only speculation. It is entirely possible that you had a "one off." It happens. With only 25 grains, a .5 grain deviation would be a 2% differential. That could have been more than sufficient to have an impact on ballistics. As to the exaggerated dimpling of the primers, in my experience, Remington actions tend to dimple more than many other actions. As long as they aren't piercing the primers, I've never been overly concerned. However, that could explain in part what you showed in the photo. However, it does seem extreme to me. On some brass (e.g. certain lots of Nosler), CCI primers and Federal primers (steel cups) seat hard requiring me to watch for failure to make a complete seat so that the anvil is properly posed for ignition. In those cases, I sometimes get no ignition, or more commonly a set-back of the brass. Consequently, this past week, I had some brass (again, Nosler) that dropped out Remington primers (brass cups) but accepted CCI primers just fine. The sole indicator until I actually fire the cartridge is the feel of seating. I've become quite attuned to these subtle differences.

 

[Powerstroke]

Thanks Mike -

So I've always seated the primer, and then "feel" if you will or set the case on a flat counter / desk type surface to ensure they are flush if you will. Is this correct? I know if they aren't in all the way, it makes for a very hard bolt closure.
I agree with some of the different seating pressures if you will between primer manufactures. I've never really experienced what I'd consider a real loose fit, or primers basically falling back out until a couple firings on some 300RUM Nosler brass a few years ago. Those I do use Fed Magnum Match primers in, however never thought about trying another manufacture.

I'll try and get a better photo, as the one I posted doesn't come close to giving the proper perspective. The outer circumference of the primers are all but rolled inward from the dimple being so deep. I can't say I'm extremely worried or believe it will be detrimental but sure would like to know whats up.

Your clarification on the powder makes me feel better about not being old as well.

 

[DrMike]

A case can set flat on a counter top and the primer still not be bottomed out. That is what I suspect is happening with your cartridges. The primer should set 2 to 3 mm below the case head. It can be flush and still have quite a bit of give when the firing pin slams it. Hey, I'm just groping to explain what you're showing.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Also, Remington primers are relatively soft cups. That and not setting them all the way until the anvil is bottomed could be the issue?

 

[Powerstroke]

Thanks Gents -

Spent the past weekend in Wyoming putting the hurt to some p-dogs.
This was the first time my kid has had a lot of trigger time & he's already for more. ( I'm on the bench right now loading more )

Anyway, I was able to narrow the issue down to a box that had been primed, but not loaded. Not sure how long the mix of primed ones had been done ( 20yrs??? ) but we had more issues with that box. Switching over to the ones I loaded in one complete process we didn't have a single primer issue. That was about 100 rounds.

I'm out of IMR3031 now, so may look for a new powder, as I'm sure there is something a bit better out there.