243 vs 25-06

[6mm Remington]

I was just giving Fotis a bad time - he just sold a real nice 6mm Rem 700 in our classifieds... I just happen to like the 6mm Rem more - but that puts me in a distinct minority.
Regards, Guy

I'm with you in that group of the 6mm user's,,,well the AI here, I just seldom if ever use it on big game myself.

6mm Remington all the way! :grin: It's good, really really good! :grin:
David

 

[ScreaminEagle]

243 AI or 6mm AI. I'd go with the latter!

 

[Songdog]

What I've noticed with the 243 guy's is they always have to use the Ackley version coupled with the Amax and the VLD to prove their point. If your standard twist 243 won't shoot one of the long, high BC bullets, you're not going to touch the 25-06.

The 243 is a very capable cartridge and will shoot flatter than the 25-06 with high BC bullets. Fact is, sans the most extreme examples, the 25-06 is a more versatile and capable cartridge than the 243.

That's because the 105 is the trump card.... and it's exactly why the .25-06 will continue to suck hind teet. If your rifle won't shoot them.... you bought the wrong rifle. If it won't shoot the Amax.... shoot a Berger.... or a HPBT.... whatever. Point is.... you don't really have that option with the .25's.

Furthermore.... I'll pick two loads for my .243 to demonstrate versatility.... feel free to provide similar loads for the .25-06, though they'll be slim pickins. 55 NBT @ 4k.... and a 105 @ 3k. The .25-06 can hang with the latter.... though it takes roughly 30% more powder and recoil to produce equal results at 400 yards. The former is simply a varmint round extraordinare..... and the .243 is a far better coyote round than the .25-06 (I've killed truck loads with both, so I'm not guessing).

I like the 6mm Rem too.... and have killed more coyotes with it than any other round.... but alas, it will always be snake-bit by COAL concerns.

At the end of the day.... I'm not pointing a .25-06 or a .243 at a bull elk (another day... please).... so that means 'chucks, coyotes, pronghorn, deer.... and the .243 will bounce all of those with aplomb (unless you're a gun scribe). So, the extra noise and recoil of the .25-06 is really all for naught.... unless you need a long action to be a man.

 

[wbyfan1]

What I've noticed with the 243 guy's is they always have to use the Ackley version coupled with the Amax and the VLD to prove their point. If your standard twist 243 won't shoot one of the long, high BC bullets, you're not going to touch the 25-06.

The 243 is a very capable cartridge and will shoot flatter than the 25-06 with high BC bullets. Fact is, sans the most extreme examples, the 25-06 is a more versatile and capable cartridge than the 243.

That's because the 105 is the trump card.... and it's exactly why the .25-06 will continue to suck hind teet. If your rifle won't shoot them.... you bought the wrong rifle. If it won't shoot the Amax.... shoot a Berger.... or a HPBT.... whatever. Point is.... you don't really have that option with the .25's.

Typical response! Please refer to the first paragraph of my previous statement.

 

[AzDak42]

I'm going to go with option C. There is no definitive answer.

If you weigh efficiency as an important item, the 243 will have an advantage. If you prefer a lighter rifle, the 243 will have an advantage. If you want a larger bullet selection the 243 will have an advantage. If you value the option of a bigger/heavier bullet for critters larger than a coyote and smaller than an elk, the 25-06 is a going to be stronger.

Both rifles will tackle critters sub-elk sized with aplomb. It's the red head vs blond debate. The answer my friends... continues to be, and will always be. Both!

 

[Gm weatherby man]

I always get a kick out of people using the extra powder waste thing from one paticular cartridge to another. It is like most fisherman and hunters complaining about liceince cost when they turn around and spend countless dollars on equip.and gas. One thing i will say is that todays top built bullets put the gap between rounds alot smaller than the used to be. :idea: To me its hunt with what you have, become familar with it, make it deadly, for the difference in the two according to my ballistics calculator shows little benifit till 500 yards fot either, and in 25-06's faver after that. :wink:

 

[AzDak42]

I always get a kick out of people using the extra powder waste thing from one paticular cartridge to another.

Because it's not something you value. For every nut that doesn't get ruffled over $3/round ammo, buys rifles they sure as hell don't need, and enjoy the gear as much as the hunt.. There are a lot of folks that wear their daily clothes, use their grand dad's rifle, drive their 20 year old pickup out to the tree stand on their own land and make a box of 20 shells last 10 seasons. Hell, my father in law looked at me like I was a damned alien when I explained that I'd burn an a few bottles of powder tweaking loads to find the best accuracy possible.

I'll grant you, for a lot of folks in this hobby, efficiency/cost are not huge drives. But that certainly isn't universal.

 

[SJB358]

I always get a kick out of people using the extra powder waste thing from one paticular cartridge to another.

Because it's not something you value. For every nut that doesn't get ruffled over $3/round ammo, buys rifles they sure as hell don't need, and enjoy the gear as much as the hunt.. There are a lot of folks that wear their daily clothes, use their grand dad's rifle, drive their 20 year old pickup out to the tree stand on their own land and make a box of 20 shells last 10 seasons. Hell, my father in law looked at me like I was a damned alien when I explained that I'd burn an a few bottles of powder tweaking loads to find the best accuracy possible.

I'll grant you, for a lot of folks in this hobby, efficiency/cost are not huge drives. But that certainly isn't universal.

Couldn't have said it better! People look at me like I am nutty when I tell them the amount of rifles I have and what I want! They say why, I say, WHY NOT!.. It is in our blood. Room for both types at the campfire, but I gotta say when those folks who only shoot a box of shells once a year see what my rifles usually do, they ask, HOW... I feel it is my job to spread the gospel!

 

[Songdog]

It ain't about money.... it's about 30% more recoil for equal downrange performance.

If I already had a .243, I wouldn't buy a .25-06..... but, I sold a .25-06 and bought a .243.....

 

[jmad_81]

If Fotis had asked about yotes and steel I would have been all over voting for a fast 6mm of some sort.

But if deer and speed goats are going to be regular targets as well I have to go with the 25-06. A 115 BT over some Retumbo will go pretty dang fast. Yes a 25-06 will recoil more, and burn more powder, but it is spitting out a heavier bullet a few hundred fps faster. I don't like the idea of using target bullets on game, so the high BC 6mm bullet selection is a non issue for me. One of my favorite rifles is my 243, and I would shoot a deer with it in a heart beat. But, if I was going to regularly target deer sized game I would opt for more than is needed. Hoping that when the day comes that I need more than what is "needed", I still have enough gun to do the job.

 

[FOTIS]

BTW this thread was purely meant for discussion purposes, :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[jmad_81]

Just stirring the pot a bit are ya :lol:

 

[FOTIS]

Well the truth is I am selling my 257 Bee so I need an "economical" replacement.....

 

[Songdog]

Typical response! Please refer to the first paragraph of my previous statement.

Typical retreat salvo.....

Feel free to regale either of the above mentioned loads.... with .25-06 loads of your choosing....

 

[Songdog]

If Fotis had asked about yotes and steel I would have been all over voting for a fast 6mm of some sort.[/quote

But if deer and speed goats are going to be regular targets as well I have to go with the 25-06. A 115 BT over some Retumbo will go pretty dang fast. Yes a 25-06 will recoil more, and burn more powder, but it is spitting out a heavier bullet a few hundred fps faster. I don't like the idea of using target bullets on game, so the high BC 6mm bullet selection is a non issue for me. One of my favorite rifles is my 243, and I would shoot a deer with it in a heart beat. But, if I was going to regularly target deer sized game I would opt for more than is needed. Hoping that when the day comes that I need more than what is "needed", I still have enough gun to do the job.

To me.... there ain't a difference between yotes, steel, deer, and goats.... if you're shooting one rifle at all four (et all).... you're going to be much more apt to place a pill in the breadbasket.

The .25/115 isn't even 10% heavier than the 105 Amax, and my experience is you get about 3150 or so... which gives you 100fps. Also, you need 60ish grains more powder to get that velocity.... which is 50% more.... and about 45% more recoil (given an equal weight gun). I've shot a lot of stuff with the .25-06, more big game that the rest of my rifles combined.... nearly all of that was with the 100 NBT at 3300. I fully expect the .243/105 Amax combo to perform exactly the same, with the added benefit of much greater LR capability.

 

[jmad_81]

If Fotis had asked about yotes and steel I would have been all over voting for a fast 6mm of some sort.[/quote

But if deer and speed goats are going to be regular targets as well I have to go with the 25-06. A 115 BT over some Retumbo will go pretty dang fast. Yes a 25-06 will recoil more, and burn more powder, but it is spitting out a heavier bullet a few hundred fps faster. I don't like the idea of using target bullets on game, so the high BC 6mm bullet selection is a non issue for ME. One of my favorite rifles is my 243, and I would shoot a deer with it in a heart beat. But, if I was going to regularly target deer sized game I would opt for more than is needed. Hoping that when the day comes that I need more than what is "needed", I still have enough gun to do the job.

To me.... there ain't a difference between yotes, steel, deer, and goats.... if you're shooting one rifle at all four (et all).... you're going to be much more apt to place a pill in the breadbasket.

The .25/115 isn't even 10% heavier than the 105 Amax, and my experience is you get about 3150 or so... which gives you 100fps. Also, you need 60ish grains more powder to get that velocity.... which is 50% more.... and about 45% more recoil (given an equal weight gun). I've shot a lot of stuff with the .25-06, more big game that the rest of my rifles combined.... nearly all of that was with the 100 NBT at 3300. I fully expect the .243/105 Amax combo to perform exactly the same, with the added benefit of much greater LR capability.

Your not comparing apples to apples. A high bc bullet in a 308 will beat a low bc bullet in an 06 at notmal hunting ranges. Hell I bet it beats a normal hunting bullet out of a 300 WM at 1000. Like I said in my opinion, I would not me using a target bullet on game (especially a 6mm one). So when I compared the two for my own use I used strictly hunting bullets. You are right about the weight difference, but its the construction difference that makes ME uneasy about using an A-Max on game.

 

[Songdog]

Cool.... don't use them. I will, and I know what they'll do. To me, there is no construction difference between an Amax and NBT. They are a plastic tipped, copper jacketed, C&C style (I know how Nosler makes them) bullets. At mach speed, they're erratic.... at 3k and under, they kill stuff like lightning.

At "normal hunting ranges".... the difference is even more irrelevant. If you can't kill a buck at 300 with any "big game bullet" out of a .243.... you hadn't ought to be shooting anything... with anything. So going to the .25-06..... you're just making more noise and eating more recoil, 'cause you ain't killing anything any deader.

For deer on down... at "normal hunting ranges"... give me a .243.

For deer on up (anywhere)... at "normal hunting ranges".... I'll take the .375 H&H

 

[ridgewalker]

Just to stir the pot, I shoot a .243 (Kimber Montana) and have had 2 Savages and a Remy 700 all in .243. My load for everything has been an 85 gr Sierra HPBT GameKing. It has never failed on Pdogs, marmots, jackrabbits, crows, coyotes, white tail deer, muleys, and antelope. I have cleanly taken antelope to 435 ranged yards. The little bullet went all the way through so I never found it to see what it did. The antelope dropped in its tracks.

I am 65 and no longer like carrying a heavy gun. I use to pack in by myself into the Rawahs for days carrying 75lbs of gun and gear. Today I still enjoy the out-of-doors just as much without killing myself with heavy stuff.

Use what you have confidence in. If you lose it, get a bigger gun, just don't go overboard because with luck you will live a long active life and out live me. At my age, lighter is better.

Good luck Fotis in your choice. They all will do the job if you do yours.

 

[Songdog]

Just to stir the pot, I shoot a .243 (Kimber Montana) and have had 2 Savages and a Remy 700 all in .243. My load for everything has been an 85 gr Sierra HPBT GameKing. It has never failed on Pdogs, marmots, jackrabbits, crows, coyotes, white tail deer, muleys, and antelope. I have cleanly taken antelope to 435 ranged yards. The little bullet went all the way through so I never found it to see what it did. The antelope dropped in its tracks.

I am 65 and no longer like carrying a heavy gun. I use to pack in by myself into the Rawahs for days carrying 75lbs of gun and gear. Today I still enjoy the out-of-doors just as much without killing myself with heavy stuff.

I'll have a bear tag in the Rawah this year... I might have to pick your brain a little there walker...

As for the 85 HPBT.... I too have seen it do some amazing stuff for as little as it is. I once saw one penetrate a 240lb blacktail stem to stern.... blowing up just about every major organ en route. That is one wicked little bullet... too bad it has the BC of a ping pong ball... or I'd shoot a lot more of them.

 

[SJB358]

Cool.... don't use them. I will, and I know what they'll do. To me, there is no construction difference between an Amax and NBT. They are a plastic tipped, copper jacketed, C&C style (I know how Nosler makes them) bullets. At mach speed, they're erratic.... at 3k and under, they kill stuff like lightning.

At "normal hunting ranges".... the difference is even more irrelevant. If you can't kill a buck at 300 with any "big game bullet" out of a .243.... you hadn't ought to be shooting anything... with anything. So going to the .25-06..... you're just making more noise and eating more recoil, 'cause you ain't killing anything any deader.

For deer on down... at "normal hunting ranges"... give me a .243.

For deer on up (anywhere)... at "normal hunting ranges".... I'll take the .375 H&H

Actually, the BT's are made like the AB's, with copper tubes, that are cut and formed. the Cup and Core bullets that Nosler makes are their Custom Comps and pistol bullets made out of copper discs that are punched. The BT's are thicker on the base, than the Amax's, and seem to hold up a little better. I am with Jake, I like the Amax's, and believe you when you have tons of confidence in them. That is probably 90% of the battle. The recoil difference between a 243 and 25-06 in similar weight rifles is pretty nil. I can't see any of them bothering anybody,, at least for hunting and some range time. No real dog in the fight, I see both sides of the coin.

Trying to prove one guys choice above another around here is crazy. If that was the case, we would all be shooting 30-06's/308 since most can't outshoot either one of them to their full ballistic potential.