243 vs 25-06

[Songdog]

I know how they're made Scotty.... that's why I said that in the post. Ultimately, it is still a C&C bullet, they just come about the "cup" a different way. The AccuBond is bonded.... not really the same thing. When I slam a Ballistic Tip into fur, I expect to see about 50% weight retention.... and if I find it in the hide on the off side (which is rare), the core will probably fall out (or be missing). I'm ok with that.... some of you aren't. This type of performance, and the wounds/kills it provides.... are what I prefer.

If we all preferred performance over titles and aesthetics..... that coffee colored gentleman wouldn't currently occupy the White House.

What I'm saying is, that I've shot a lot of stuff with the NBTs (particularly the 100 NBT in .25 cal).... the 105 Amax has behaved exactly as I'd expect a 100 NBT to out of the .25-06.... just without all the fuss, and with better downrange ballistics. Your mileage may vary....

 

[Guy Miner]

3190 fps with a 115 gr Berger VLD from my .25-06 was flat enough to hold on hair and make a heart shot on a Wyoming mulie at 400 yards. Thought that was pretty good. Sighted in at 300 yards with the 6x Leupold.

But that's getting into the same category as the AMax, using a lightly constructed target bullet for game. It works surprisingly well, but for most hunting I do prefer a hunting bullet that hangs together better. From my experience, a Nosler Ballistic Tip stays together a lot better than the AMax or the Berger.

Don't have a lot of experience with the AMax though - but it seemed pretty fragile. Deadly & accurate, but fragile.

I really think we're sort of splitting hairs here guys - there's a whole cluster of .24 & .25 cal cartridges that shoot flat, recoil very mildly and work great for the purposes Fotis put forth. They're all dandy for the shooter!

"For an occasional varmint coyote but mainly antelope and deer."

Guy

 

[Songdog]

I like the 115 Berger/Retumbo combo..... I shot it for years, and killed critters with it. But, it took me 58-62 grains of powder to get 3150..... and that's still equal performance at 400 for 50% more powder/recoil. Seems to me, pretty much everything you've pointed that .25 at has died a pretty instant death... going to be a bummer when they realize they were shot with a "lightly constructed match bullet", and jump out of your freezer.

Sure seems like there's a lot of guys who will trust a Ballistic Tip, but not an Amax.... even though they've never actually shot anything with one(or either).

 

[SJB358]

I know how they're made Scotty.... that's why I said that in the post. Ultimately, it is still a C&C bullet, they just come about the "cup" a different way. The AccuBond is bonded.... not really the same thing. When I slam a Ballistic Tip into fur, I expect to see about 50% weight retention.... and if I find it in the hide on the off side (which is rare), the core will probably fall out (or be missing). I'm ok with that.... some of you aren't. This type of performance, and the wounds/kills it provides.... are what I prefer.

If we all preferred performance over titles and aesthetics..... that coffee colored gentleman wouldn't currently occupy the White House.

What I'm saying is, that I've shot a lot of stuff with the NBTs (particularly the 100 NBT in .25 cal).... the 105 Amax has behaved exactly as I'd expect a 100 NBT to out of the .25-06.... just without all the fuss, and with better downrange ballistics. Your mileage may vary....

Sorry mate. Reread that post. Didn't mean to sound like that. Was just trying to explain the difference between the BT's and AB's is only bonding. Wasn't meant to be directed at you. Apologize for that.

 

[Guy Miner]

Songdog - not arguing - just commenting on the rifle I use most these days - in that class of cartridges.

For many years, decades, I mostly used the 6mm Rem. Nothing ever crawled back out of the freezer after getting hit with it either! :grin: Even before there were AMax & VLD bullets. Or Ballistic Tips either.

Buddy of mine is a huge proponent of the AMax, using them even from his .300 mag for elk! :shock: He was doing that several years ago, and it's still working out for him. Like the Bergers, they sure do work, despite detractors.

Regards, Guy

 

[onesonek]

"no construction difference between an Amax and NBT".

I would believe there is, mainly a tapered jacket comes to mind.
Not meaning to argue the fine points here.
But as I see it from reports I have heard,,,,the A-max will do fine at extended range.
The problem I have heard is when the unexpected short range oppritunity presents it's self.
From what I heard from more than a couple fellows, is at short range they (Amax's) act like a varmint bullet nearly vaporizing when at or over 25-2600 fps terminal impact.

That's where I prefer the NPT,,,,sure I have to give up some yardage, but it will do what i expect, as far as I care to shoot at big game.
It boils down to hunting style, and whether one will pass on the short shot or pass on the extreme long shot. Personally I like to hunt with handguns, so for the most part it is a short to modest range affair. jmo on the subject.

 

[Gm weatherby man]

AzDak42 , you can't put me into that catergory, i haved used a 303 brit for 30 years before i bought any other guns, factory bullets from federal since the first box hit the store shelves :roll: .My load development consists of three things, extream powder that has good reputation for accurcy for caliber, popular brass for that caliber,anf bullet of known good manufacture :wink: r. I only have one gun shooting over a inch at a hundred out of 15, no worry about the lands, no need for max loads.By the wayIi loaded for that brit for 6 years before buying any rifles to feed my new hobby of last 5 years :idea: .

 

[wildgene]

For an occasional varmint coyote but mainly antelope and deer.

What say you and why?

...I'll be the first to admit my love for the "QuarterBores" is tainted by preconceptions, misconceptions, & plain ol' cussedness. Since I can pretty much match the exterior ballistics of the 105gr. A-Max or VLD w/ a 115gr. VLD (MV 3192fps), 117gr. Sierra SBT (MV 3242fps), or 120gr. Speer SBT (MV 3204fps) w/ the same amount of powder (44.5gr. RL-17) & hardly any more noticeable recoil from .25 WSSM, that major turning point kinda become moot for me. Super high BC's require "yardage" before they start to show significant advantage, & since I've shot a lot more game inside 100yds. than I have outside 400yds. I tend to concern myself more w/ terminal ballistics. In the 6mm, I trust the 100gr. NPT & GrandSlam to perform on a consistent basis over a wide range of velocities. Like politicians who "were for sumpthing before they were against it", bullets that "were match before they were hunting" make me leery. I'll give up some BC for proven terminal performance. Now, I know that the .243 comes in "hunting rifles", but around here it's a lot more common in varmint rifles or carbines, while there are still a few 26" barreled .25-06's to be found (the M77 MV's in .220 Swift & .25-06 were proof someone understood rifles). For coyotes, the new 90gr. BK (0.393) @3500-3600fps is more than a match for a 55gr. BK @ 4000fps. For fun & games, there's the 70gr. BK & 75gr. HP's, or for a little more wind resistance, the 85-90gr. varmint bullets...

 

[CatskillCrawler]

I've been away so I'm late to this pillow fight.

Like Wild Gene, terminal performance is what I'm interested in and I don't see the .243 with the 100gr NPT holding a candle to the 110gr NAB, 115 or 120 gr NPT out of a 25-06. It works fine for deer but I would much rather have a bit more weight and displacement. There aren't any pronghorn within 1500 miles of me so I have no opinion on the effectiveness of either regarding them.The 85gr NBT is a beast on yotes at 3500fps and the 75gr bullets at 3700fps are nothing to be sneezed at for same.

If the quarry was limited to yotes or smaller I would entertain the .243 but once you bring ungulates into the picture, I'll grab the quarterbores everytime.

 

[Songdog]

A 90 grainer at 3600.... will never be a 55 at 4k... it ain't even close, and that's coming from a guy that's shot out a few barrels with the 85 NBT at 3600+. The 55 at 4000+ simply must be shot to be believed... the bullet gets there NOW.... with authority.

I don't believe in "labels".... match bullet, varmint bullet, big game bullet.... whatever. That's for y'all to debate. I actually shoot stuff with a bullet, and go from there..... I've shot a fair enough amount of stuff to extrapolate a bit. I've killed a couple deer with the 55 NBT (out of a 6mm Rem. running 4100ish).... varmint bullet right? Both times the bullet exited on a lung shot, both time said deer bounced. There are a lot of folks who'd never point a Ballistic Tip at fur.... of any caliber. But, those who have know how well they work when applied properly. Bullets in the right place kill stuff.... period. At the end of the day, I'm going with the bullet that's the most likely to end up in the bread basket.... and have sufficient terminal performance to kill critter in question.

I'm wondering if any of you that are spouting off about the Amax..... have actually shot anything with one? If so.... I'd love to hear how the performance differed from what you'd expect from a ballistic tip? Dare I say crickets?

 

[wildgene]

...uh, OK...

 

[onesonek]

I understand your loyality to the A-max to some degree.
But I can, and have killed 1800lb bovine with a .22 LR.
That don't mean I would use it on any big game!
However, I am glad it has worked well for you Songdog.
I just have heard enough failure's for me not to put it in that application. After all, it's just a straight jacketed slug with a plastic tip and boat tail. If you remove those last 2 features, you have nothing more than a late 1800's bullet. There was a reason, the evolution of the jacketed bullet incorporated a taperd jacket, or some sort of core locking design. Then came the Partition, of which most all others are still compared today in hunting performance.
I also have seen an Antelope hit with .22-250 50 gr.,, all i can say is, it had blood shot meat everywhere but the rump and hide legs.
Kill? yes indeed, but unreliable in some situations. You have had success, others have not.
My only reason, is to let the "newbie" know both sides of the story

 

[Songdog]

Who's the newbie?

Also, I have no loyalty to any bullet..... I'm sending the best man for the job, on deer/goats/coyotes.... that's the 105 Amax in the .243. My criteria for what a bullet needs to do are different from yours.... but, I have meat in the freezer just like you. All of a sudden you need a monolithic bonded steel-cored Partition to kill a freaking deer..... man, that Darwin guy nailed it!

For the record.... again.... I've killed most of my big game with a 100 NBT out of the .25-06.... it was my favorite caliber since I bought my first centerfire rifle in 1993 (at the age of 16). The first two boxes of bullets I bought were 85 NBTs and 100 NBTs.... and I can't recall one of either ever failing me. However, the 105 has proven to be all the .25/100 is.... with far less noise and recoil.... and far greater extended accuracy (and punch) than the .25-06 ever had to offer with that bullet.

Shoot what you want..... but don't badmouth stuff haven't shot based on a couple of speculations and a youtube video. And please.... pretty please.... with sugar on top..... don't perpetuate stuff you "heard".

 

[onesonek]

Who's the newbie?
People that come to these types of boards looking to learn, and are new to the sport.
Don't read more into it than was stated.

Also, I have no loyalty to any bullet..... I'm sending the best man for the job, on deer/goats/coyotes.... that's the 105 Amax in the .243.
In your opinion

My criteria for what a bullet needs to do are different from yours....
Indeed
but, I have meat in the freezer just like you.

All of a sudden you need a monolithic bonded steel-cored Partition to kill a freaking deer
..... man, that Darwin guy nailed it!
Careful of your conjecture in a context you injected, it may come back to haunt you.
I just stated bullets evolved because of failures, or inconsistant results in the older design and construction methods.

For the record.... again.... I've killed most of my big game with a 100 NBT out of the .25-06.... it was my favorite caliber since I bought my first centerfire rifle in 1993 (at the age of 16).
That explains a lot. I was there once too, some 30+ yrs. ago. I was shooting some long range comp., before you were in Kindergarten.

The first two boxes of bullets I bought were 85 NBTs and 100 NBTs.... and I can't recall one of either ever failing me. However, the 105 has proven to be all the .25/100 is.... with far less noise and recoil.... and far greater extended accuracy (and punch) than the .25-06 ever had to offer with that bullet.
Either shoot farther than I would shoot at big game, but each to their own

Shoot what you want..... but don't badmouth stuff haven't shot based on a couple of speculations and a youtube video.
Speculations? I just don't repeat observations of just one instance, and who said anything about youtube? Now's who's speculating, or rather insinuating?

And please.... pretty please.... with sugar on top..... don't perpetuate stuff you "heard".
Out of the numbers I "heard",, some were reported on other boards such as this. A few other's I did some calling as I know 3 personal friends that also have used them. I trust their years and experience far more than yours.
And as far as the sarcasm goes,,,,,kind of reminds my what parents often said,,,,,
"the young are eager to learn, but slow to listen". Yep, I been there, done that.
Let's see if you have that tone in another 20 yrs.
Quite honestly, I don't think you seen it all,,,,,, just yet.

 

[Songdog]

And please.... pretty please.... with sugar on top..... don't perpetuate stuff you "heard".
Out of the numbers I "heard",, some were reported on other boards such as this. A few other's I did some calling as I know 3 personal friends that also have used them. I trust their years and experience far more than yours.
And as far as the sarcasm goes,,,,,kind of reminds my what parents often said,,,,,
"the young are eager to learn, but slow to listen". Yep, I been there, done that.
Let's see if you have that tone in another 20 yrs.
Quite honestly, I don't think you seen it all,,,,,, just yet.

[/quote]

You're right Dave.... my tone is rather flippant.... but thank you for making my point. I asked for evidence or experience with the Amax on game. You come back with a couple of internet boards a 3 guys you know..... not anything of substance.... no offence to your personal friends..... or whatever internet sites you peruse.... but I'll trust my freezer and eyes to tell me how bullets work. This is exactly the problem..... those who spout off rarely have any actual experience to offer.

I haven't seen it all...... but I've seen enough to know what I'm looking for. That includes actually shooting the bullets in question..... not simply regurgitating "information" I got from another site.

At least the young are actually eager to learn......... insert something about old dogs and tricks here: _______________________________________

 

[onesonek]

Sometimes I use other's experience in what my criteria determines a failure, and do need to use that bullet in order to find the results. Somtimes it's common sense, I don't need to drive my car off a cilff to see what happens,,,I seen what others that have, end up for results.
But in other related experience being a meat cutter by trade,,,,
Working in a number of lockers in various areas, and prior all the deer and other big game we proceessed at school, numbering in several 100 maybe more, there are few things I haven't seen as far what different projectiles do at impact.
Oh, and the concept of learning new tricks,,,that one ain't so new.
Beyond that, we'll just have to disagree on what constitutes a reliable hunting bullet.
With that, I bid you best regards on the subject.

 

[Gm weatherby man]

I have been carrying a gun in the woods since i was very young, 35 years now, shot alot animals, seen alot a different results of bullets on game.I personaly feel that the smaller the caliber the stouter the bullet should be if fps is on the high side of 3000 fps for big game. I have found hornaby lead to be on soft side over the years, what saves the 105 grn is heavy for caliber bullet and reduced enough speed and it appears to act like the AccuBond on game.I personly shot a whitetailed buck @ 5 yards with a frontle shot through brisket to the heart.The interesting part when skinning the deer is that the bullet entered the heart but never exited as a bullet, but as the smallest lead fragments in all directions. this effect on the heart made way larger and softer than a moose heart, mush.There was fragments, dust of lead through out lung tissue surface.One another hunt @ 70 yards shot a buck quartering my direction I fired through front shoulder to boiler room, to my disbeliefe deer ran off, trail him all day to have another hunter shoot him, left for the wolves.Found him next morning 200 yards from where i had seen a group shooting at something the eve before. Inspection showed my bullet placement dead on, but did not penetrate deep enough or cause enough damage to bring him down, the other hunters with a 300 wm 150 grn, found a bullet that must off fallen out of their pocket, hit deer mid body just under spine which severed the main artery thus bleeding deer out on what looked like a deed run for 200 yrds.So in the end for me i'll never use a lead based bullet from hornaby, a Partition, or any light contructed bullet in any small caliber guns ever again.I have seen what poor bullets do, and have seen good bullets perform miracles. :roll: Personal the reason the 25-06 wins for me is because with either gun it is choosing one bullet to do both yote and deer and not fidle change scope for each bullet for each type hunt, one gun, one bullet, that is why the 25-06 wins for me.

 

[AzDak42]

I hate to wade back into this, but curiosity has me on this one...

http://www.hornady.com/store/6mm-.243-105-gr-A-MAX/

*Match bullets are not recommended for hunting.

I freely admit I've never shot the 105g AMAX at game. I've also never shot the Sierra HPBT matchking or Nosler CC on game either. The folks that make bullets, shoot more, gather more data and research in gel more than I ever possibly could, have stated that match bullets are a poor choice for hunting and steer you toward their hunting bullet lines.

Why is that? (And I'm not being sarcastic, I'm trying to understand your view of their thought process.) Is it economics? Is their margin higher on their target bullets lower, so they'd rather sell you a more expensive box of bullets for hunting applications? Or, after research, do they know that they are probably pretty good, but not custom designed for the purpose so their are better options?

I fully accept that we are way into the land of overkill on must rifle/bullet combos on game up through white tails. So we do have a wide margin of error. Hell, how many coyotes fell over dead to .22 shorts back where I grew up? 100,000? I really don't doubt that any 105g pill hitting a critter at 2900+ fps is pretty deadly.

In the end, I just struggle with the bullet manufacturers logic. If Hornady could sell a .500 BC hunting bullet, I think their marketing folks would go ape shit. But their has to be some reason they hold back.

 

[Oldtrader3]

All I can go by ins experience and an unconscious sense of proportion as it pertains to deer rifles. That seems to be what we are mostly discussing here in this topic. For what it is worth, I have noticed a trend in my deer rifles since 1957, when I started hunting WT with a .303 Mark 4, No. 1 SMLE. Now, I have no idea how many deer I have killed but it is more than 75 and less than probably 150 or so, nearly all bucks since western laws to not permit too much doe shooting.

I have noticed a couple of trends in my deer rifles since I got out of the Army in 1964. This may be relevant or not but here goes:
1. Aside from one .257 Roberts which I have not hunted with, all of the rifles which I own presently, which have killed deer are .277 or above (.270 Win or larger).
2.None of the deer shot with any of my present rifles (including the .338 WM) have gone more than 30 feet from where they were first hit. Most were DRT!
3. All of these deer were killed with a Partition handload, except one shot in the head with a 9mm Browning HiPower at 10 yards while I was taking a leak.
4. All of the deer (5 or so) that went more than 30 feet were shot with a .243 Win or a .25-06. In fact, only one deer, shot with a 90 gr Partition (.243) died instantly from this grouping.
5. Other deer shot with an older Roberts or a .250 Savage with 100 gr Partitions, died where they stood.
5. I have never shot a deer with a .224 centerfire.
6. All deer shot with a 7mm Mag, 160 Partition or .300 H&H, 165 Partition handload @ 3150 fps, (12 or so deer) were dead before I came down from recoil at any range to 350 yards.
7. The only deer that I have absolutely lost, was shot at 40 yards (high lung blood spot) with a Corelockt 150 gr, .30-30 Win in 1963!

These are a few pertinent factors over a lot of years and the only conclusion that I can draw is: big works! A couple of quick points, I do not shoot unless I have the animal in a position for a quick killing shot and I usually can place the bullet within a radius of 1.5 inches from aimpoint (or closer) and do so with boring regularity.

 

[Songdog]

*Match bullets are not recommended for hunting.

I freely admit I've never shot the 105g AMAX at game. I've also never shot the Sierra HPBT matchking or Nosler CC on game either. The folks that make bullets, shoot more, gather more data and research in gel more than I ever possibly could, have stated that match bullets are a poor choice for hunting and steer you toward their hunting bullet lines.

Why is that?

I believe there are a couple of reasons for this:

First, Geneva Convention. By declaring that the Amax is "not recommended for hunting".... they do not disqualify themselves from potentially large Military/Tactical contracts. Sierra has come out and admitted as much regarding the Match King line..... even though world renound hunters like David Miller have been using them for years on furry stuff. Berger took a different approach, and embraced the fact that their bullets were match accurate and killed stuff well. Now, they label the bullets differently, and have made a few changes to provide less chance of failures to open.

Second, Image. Not too many match type folks are interested in a "hunting" bullet..... even if it is exceptionally accurate.

Third, Marketing/Pricepoint. No, not marketing/pricing on the Amax itself..... but for other bullets in their line. Bullets like the Interbond and Interlock..... "hunting bullets".... that they can sell for more dough.

All I can go by is experience

Me too..... and I've seen a half-dozen critters meet their maker via an Amax. That's 6 more than all the rest of the accounts on this post COMBINED. Also, I know of at least another dozen by my close group of friends..... no bullet failures..... only one didn't exit..... and it looked just like a Ballistic Tip after it made a trip through a black bear.

what saves the 105 grn is heavy for caliber bullet and reduced enough speed and it appears to act like the AccuBond on game.

I've been saying that all along..... this is a quite heavy for caliber bullet..... with impact velocities in the 2850-2000fps range. Within those performance perameters..... it doesn't take an Uber-Bullet to kill deer. In fact, I would bet that more deer are killed every year with a .243 and a standard 100 grain factory loaded Core-Loct (or Win. PSP)..... than all the ballistic tips and partitions put together. But hey.... I guess those deer don't log onto this forum.