25 Cal, early Jack o' Conner

[35 Whelen]

Reading Jacks "The Lost Classics" by Jim Casada, I was amused by real early Jack down in Mexico hunting whittails with Eleanors little 257 Roberts, appertly the gun was new to them then 1937?? Jack is hunting out of Rancho El Datil , and they pack in to Los Mochis. Though he never mentions the exact bullet he is using, every deer he shoots with it, runs off......... some of them for miles! He is extreamely frustrated and keeps referencing his "Springfield" and how quickly the 30/06 would have dispatched these deer! At one point he even referances that "shooting through a tree first" might ,get the bullets to expand !!!
Funny that as the years went by he often, raved about what a "quick killer" it was for Eleanor, all over North America, and Africa?? Being a personal friend of Vernon Speers , they must have soon figured the problem out? I am guessing the bullets may Have been Rem Bronze Pts ??? Interesting at the time of that writing he never mentions his beloved .270 ?
E

 

[PJGunner]

I remember reading in one of Jack's articles in the old Outdoor Life magazine that he considered the Remington bronze point somewhat erratic. Either they blew up like bombs or just penciled on through.
Never shot any of that style bullet that I can remember. Probably did but I don't recall using them on game if I did.
Paul B.

 

[bobnob]

I don't know what ammo he was using of course, but game running off usually occurs because either the shot placement was poor or the bullet didn't expand very much.

Assuming he was putting his shots through the vitals he must nearly have been getting that "pencilling" effect mentioned above.

This is why I am very much an advocate of using relatively soft bullets for all but the heaviest game. In literally thousands and thousands of cull pigs, goats and similar sized game I've consistently observed that heavy(ish) for calibre, soft pointed or plastic tip bullets put game on the deck much quicker than anything else.

I will admit that I don't shoot magnums much, so my comments must be regarded in that context.

In any case it has to be said that bullets like the AccuBond and Partition seem to offer the best compromise for my sort of shooting and old JOC would have been well served if he'd have had either of those available on the above referenced hunt!

 

[Bruce Mc]

In one of the articles Jack O'Connor wrote for Outdoor life he said that the early 100gr bullets loaded in the .257 Roberts were too hard and passed through. He said that problem had been rectified in current ammunition. I'm not positive but I don't think Remington ever made a .25 caliber bullet in the bronze point. In that same article he wrote about his wife and son using the rifle effectively. O'Connor considered the .257 Roberts to be the ideal all around gun for varmints and deer sized game and even commented it was effective on mule deer and caribou. And I think I've used this quote on several occasions but I'll repeat it, Townsend Whelen in his book of the Rifle said that the .257 Roberts was perhaps the most useful rifle for hunting in North America.

 

[35 Whelen]

Good stuff Bruce, and gotta go with Whelen every time!

 

[SJB358]

Cool story E. Really enjoy those old writers. Can you imagine, writing about hunting and rifles and no carrying on about the latest and greatest plastic stocked rifle with the latest "Buck Smoker Ammo"...

 

[Bruce Mc]

Scotty, have you taken a look a Outdoor life, cover to cover. They have all the past editions of the magazine back to 1900s and a search engine.

 

[SJB358]

Scotty, have you taken a look a Outdoor life, cover to cover. They have all the past editions of the magazine back to 1900s and a search engine.

Sure haven't. I'll check it out. I'd like to do that.

 

[super-7]

I've got a short story around here somewhere in a book( obviously) of Jack and Eleanor in Mexico hunting doves , and took a side trip for Muleys. I will look it up ! I remembered she was using her 257 Bob though.
I can't quite remember the name , One for the ______ ?
Not señorita .. I will do some digging . Lol moving sucks .

 

[35 Whelen]

I hear ya Scotty, its too bad he didnt give the brand of ammo he was using, the bullets for what ever reason would not expand correctly , and Jack was getting very whiney! Course there is a good chance had he tryed them on a 1200lb Bull Moose they probably would have worked just fine! Lol, same story with any caliber,
My Dad told me he started using 180gr bullets in his 300 Sav back in late 40s early 50s and had a ton of problems with pass thrus and bucks running off, again dont know the ammo, but he switched to 150gr bullets and imeadiately started flattening them, the 150 were obviously going enough faster to make the bullets expand faster and transfer alot more energy into the animal.
My uncle, who guided for Dad for 40 years, had same problem with 180gr bullets from his 308, so just for fun he loaded up, some of those 150gr 30/30, flat nose bullets, (light jackets)Apperantly, when pushed at 308 velocitys, those become sorta like "Varmageddons" to a whitetail buck deer!! He claimed it was amazing how effective that combo works. If you remember I had superb luck for 7/8 years shooting coyotes with some 80gr HPBT bullets that worked amazing! I bought them in a gun show in a plastic bag for $5 for like 65 bullets or something like that, Since I ran out of those I have tryed probably a dozen different bullets since; and NONE of them work as good as the mystery bullets I had.......... 58gr Vmax kill the same, but are hopeless in a 20kt wind at 300 yds.......but I have high hopes for the 70gr Varmageddons

 

[SJB358]

All part of the fun to me is finding the bullets that work for what I want done. It is tough being a looney.. I would imagine most folks in our shoes buy a box of Remington shells, zero the gun and kill stuff stuff.. I on the other hand cannot stop looking at wounds created and observing what actually happened.

If those 70 VG's don't work, I'd look at the 70 BT's. That's another bullet that does really well in most 243's and seems to open up large holes when its loaded up properly.

 

[efw]

We live in the golden age of bullets for sure.

I own that collection; need to re-read.

He loved the 257 Rob, 7x57, & 30-06 long before he hit the Blue Oyster Bar's cartridge; he knew The Truth !

 

[cloverleaf]

He also wrote a piece on the 250-3000 Savage. Supposedly he was impressed. I have not read the article :shock: :shock: . Of course, as he put it "I too have felt the cruel pinch of want....so if a fella can make an honest dollar (writing his opinion) I am all for it". :lol: CL

 

[efw]

Just goes to show how cartridges were so limited back then by bullet choice...hence Elmers lack of faith in smaller stuff...

Always cracks me up how fun writers today talk about new cartridges. I mean a 30 cal pushing a 180 at X fps ought to be end of the story; once you know those stats you know how performance will be based on your bullet choice right?

 

[truck driver]

E, I've run into a similar problem as you with not being able to find the bullets I like to use in my 257 Bob for varmints. Hornady made a 75gr Hp that worked great in my 1-12" twist barrel and it looked like a hand grenade went off in them. They were so explosive they would blow up going threw grass and never reach the ground hog I was shooting at which was a good thing since the farms I hunted had lots of houses around them and you had to be very selective of your shots and you didn't want complete pass threw with the bullet.

 

[efw]

Oh yeah those 75 gr HPs from Horn & their VMax of the same weight are both great for varmints.

Either of those + 3400 fps + woodchuck = POP!

 

[preacher]

My Uncle "Bud" Roberts claimed to be a relative of Ned Roberts, the originator of the .257 Bob. I traded for a new, back in 1981, Mod 700 Classic and started out with the 100gr Nosler BT. I never killed anything with it with that bullet, but it was very accurate. I then had it reamed properly to the .257 Roberts Ackley Improved. Wonder of wonders! With a full case of IMR 4350 and the old Hornady 120HP , seated out to a tad over 3" COL it was death and destruction on everything from crows to East Texas whitetails! It also made such a cute shaped cartridge! Ha. To my mind, the .257 AI is the "best version" of the .257 Bob...but hey, I like the .257 Bee the best of "all" the 25 cals!

 

[lhsako]

I remember reading in one of Jack's articles in the old Outdoor Life magazine that he considered the Remington bronze point somewhat erratic. Either they blew up like bombs or just penciled on through.
Never shot any of that style bullet that I can remember. Probably did but I don't recall using them on game if I did.
Paul B.

I used the 130 bronze in the .270 and my buddy the 150 in the springfield...lol.
this was in the early ,80's . worked fine on deer, accuracy was 1.5"
> reading O'Connor as a kid in OL, started my big game hunting career. I recall leaning over the bridge drinking a refreshing beverage after a successful moose in the telegraph creek area. Kept recalling jack talking about the 3 days long pack-in up the Stikine from the coast.
I realized I wasn't dreaming..... I made it!

 

[35 Whelen]

Jack was the man......... way ahead of his time, I remember Elmer always took a poke at him when ever he could, he wrote one time, " a 270 is an ok rifle for varmits, and probably would make a great "Eagle rifle" , but he had no intrest in one!!! Lol another time after he retired he was quoted when referencing Jack as "he was sick and tired of sucking hind tet"........... lol
If the shoe fits wear it!